Is living an "authentic life" contrary to "Torah life"

Ravenclaw

Sat, Nov 17 2018, 9:08 pm

Ok so I have been following this thread but needed the time to collect my thoughts before responding. Here goes:
I think living an “authentic” life is ToTALLY compatible with a Torah lifestyle. The problem is that we are misdefining authenticity. Authentic is defined as “true to one's own personality, spirit, or character”. Now we all believe that HASHEM has each given us a unique tafkid, emphasis on the word unique. Every person has a deep burning desire in them for something. This is your tafkid and you are obligated to use it to serve HASHEM (I.e. every desire can be expressed in a Torahdige way, the question isn’t if you can do it it’s how you do it.) HASHEM wouldn’t have given you the talents, will and passion if you weren’t meant to use it.
Sounds simple right? So why the confusion?
Society, as usual, gets in the way.
Secular society has decided on one acceptable life path—the high powered career, becoming a household name. That is what they call success. What, you just wanna be a housewife? Ha, that’s nothing. You are wasting your life.
Contemporary Jewish society has decided on another acceptable life path. Speaking for myself in the chassidishe world, that would be being as balabustish as humanely possible, and a dream SAHM. For men, it’s learning as long possible.
Now there are things that are Torah. Yes, as Jewish women we should be raising families. Men should learn Torah. But as Ivory pointed out, that doesn’t include ironing and having 3 course home cooked meals. For men, it could be throwing themselves into chesed if they aren’t cut out for longer learning.
Going back to OP’s original question, I consider anyone who follows their inner voice to fulfill their tafkid to be authentic. I personally see the value in finding a cure for cancer, but Neil Armstrong? Not so much. However, if he was fulfilling his inner mission and life’s goal, then he was authentic.
I don’t care which career path my daughter as long as she is being true to herself. If she chooses to be a SAHM and babysitter just because that is socially acceptable in our community, but doesn’t feel accomplished, I will be very sad. Yet at the same time, if she decides to become a scientist to please me since I put such an emphasis on intellectualism, but truly wants to be home cooking nutritious meals and giving her family a beautiful clean home while caring for sweet yiddishe kinderlach, but doesn’t because she feels she is expected to “do more” I will also be sad. I want her to be herself, and what is authenticity? To each his own. We fool ourselves by trying to fit society’s expectations of us, whether secular society or Jewish society. Deep down you know what your true calling is.

amother

Papaya

Sat, Nov 17 2018, 9:38 pm

eema of 3 wrote:

I have an uncle who is one of the top radiologists, for sure in the US, possibly in the world. He is at the forefront of the advancements in radiology and imaging. He developed his own educational tutorial, and goes around the world lecturing.
I have a cousin who is in medical research.
I have a cousin who is in forensic psychology.
I have a cousin who is a leading urologist.

I should add that they are all very much shomer shabbos and shomer torah and mitzvos. Clearly they are not mutually exclusive. I think the reason we don’t see it is because of the lack of emphasis on secular and world knowledge, and doing great things, moreso in the rightwing world.

Our daughter has a masters in forensic psych it does not interfere with her yidishhkeit.
She is looking for a good doctorate program anyway I can get info from your cousin

amother

Blush

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 7:26 am

zaq wrote:

By your definition, then, amother blush, if we meet on the street and you ask me what I think of your new sheitel, I should be “authentic” and come out and say it looks likes a horsehair helmet rather than prevaricate and say “it’s a great color, very becoming.” And when you ask me how I am, I should launch into a recitation of my latest doctor visit and an update on my bunions rather than my usual “B”H excellent”. And of course when queried by a prospective shidduch’s mom, I should say your dd is rather more on the moody side than otherwise, and not the sharpest knife in the drawer, correct? Because that would be”authentic”?

1. I shared a thought (one of many thoughts I have on the topic), not a definition.

2. If we were to meet on the street and I were to ask what you think of my sheitel, the question itself would be stemming from an in-authentic place. The authentic question would be, ''Do you like me? Do you approve of my choices?"

3. If I were to ask what you think of my shaitel, one possible authentic response would be, ''not my taste,'' or, ''I don't like it.'' Unless you truly are thinking, ''It's a great color, very becoming'', it would be inauthentic to say so to me. I'm not judging it, I'm just naming it.

4. When I ask you how you are, you can authentically say, ''I'm not doing too well''. If I ask for details you have the option of "launching into a recitation of your latest doctor visit and an update on your bunions..." For you to say, ''B'H excellent'' when that is not reflective of how you are in the moment, is imho an instance of inauthenticity. I'm not judging it, I'm just naming it.

5. When queried by a prospective shidduch's mom, I can authentically say, ''To be honest, I'm uncomfortable being in this position, so if you'll excuse me I'd like to end this call.''

Living in authenticity goes against the grain of everything we've been taught from birth on. Living in authenticity is a difficult path, not for the faint of heart.

We have reason to live non-authentically. It's the easier path.

PinkFridge

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 8:21 am

zaq wrote:

Read A J Jacobs's My Life As An Experiment. Once chapter (or more? don't remember) dealt with radical honesty. That's not our way.

Living Jewishly should, ideally, be the most authentic way to possibly live. It's a chaval that, as galus goes on, we get more and more distant from this essential truth.

zaq

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 10:39 am

amother wrote:

Clearly we have a different definition of the term authentic. I define it as genuine in a positive way. Let’s be authentic and not give things pretty names they don’t deserve. Blunt rudeness is not “authentic”, although it is “authentic Donald Trump style”. Let’s call it what it is, blunt rudeness.

ora_43

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 11:23 am

Short answer: They don't exactly contradict, but it can be hard to find the right balance.

Long answer:

I'm torn on this question.

On the one hand, yes, we can't have it all. We aren't Barbie; none of us are going to be a pilot who is also a doctor who is also a ballerina. And if we have kids, time spent raising them will be, by definition, time not spent doing other things. Including developing a career.

On the other hand, the general tone of the question is that of a fantasy I've seen more than once among young FFBs - the idea that in the Frei World, all you need is a decent IQ and the willingness to work hard, and you'll have it made.

The reality? You have to earn two (notoriously difficult) degrees just to TA a math or science class, let alone be a ground-breaking researcher. Careers are HARD. Brilliant, hard-working people are lucky if they get a job with decent conditions that lets them pursue their intellectual interests, let alone something that Changes The World. (And just for the record, fame is pretty much arbitrary - for every one world-changing person you've heard of, there are tens of thousands more you haven't.)

Having kids can be an obstacle to a successful career, but it's only one of a hundred potential obstacles. And not insurmountable. There are no black and white answers. Some very successful people do have kids, some brilliant people without kids struggle to find success. Ditto for being shomer shabbat.

Ultimately, I think that for most people, their religious values and their family are an integral part of what, to them, is a meaningful/authentic life. So not only is there no contradiction, the two go together. But OTOH, yes, the tension between family life and career is a real thing, and it's a constant balancing act.

Fortunately there's a lot of gray area between "8 kids and I do all my own laundry, too" and "not frum," and between "Steve Jobs" and "only ever worried about my daled amot." Most of us are somewhere in the middle. On both of those things.

amother

Sienna

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 12:17 pm

ora_43 wrote:

I'm equally torn on this, but I would say the pressure to decide on your life path at the tender age of 18-20 does interfere with your options. In the majority of our communities we are all encouraged to marry early and start a family. Many girls at that point haven't figured out yet who exactly they are, what strengths Hashem blessed them with, and how to set up their life accordingly.

Take me for example - During my childhood, I was taught that the only Torah'dike option for any girl is to get married promptly out of school and start a family immediately. And the only goal a yiddishe girl should aim for is to be the mom of a large family and raise a beautiful generation.

I am not discounting the value of any that, God forbid, but some women need more than that. I was the obedient girl who followed societal rules, got married at 19 and had 3 kids by 23. But there was some subconscious niggling that was quieted during those hectic toddlers year, which gradually reared its head when my youngest was off to preschool. And I was left with very few options. I was blessed with a very sharp brain and had a deep passion for the medical world, but the options were severely limited to me at that point. I made due with the options available to me, but I'll always be limited in career advancements. I'm still under the impression that I'll never reach my full potential, even with all the effort I'm putting into it.

I keep on telling myself that if this is how things worked out for me, this must be the path that Hashem wants me to be on. But I can't help wondering, what would be if I wasn't taught that there was only one path for a Jewish woman. What would have been if I was taught that you can set up a path that has multiple directions, with the consideration never to lose sight of the essence.

Motherhood, while fulfilling as it is, does not completely fulfill me. My heart and soul yearns for something else, and I'm trying to plug that hole right now. I feel that it's much more difficult to do this right now at my current stage, and takes a bigger toll on my family, than if I would have the opportunity to set up this balance when I was younger.

So to answer the OP's question - Personally, based on my life's path and struggles, I feel that there is clash between the two. But that's based on societal expectations and not the Torah itself. There's definitely an authentic way to set up a beautiful balance right from the start, and if only our communities would acknowledge that.

amother

Salmon

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 5:43 pm

It really depends on what living an “authentic life” means to you. If you’re passionate about becoming an Olympic gymnast , a performer , eating exotic foods , a professional model etc , there will most likely be conflicts with being able to live a Torah lifestyle.
A career as a lawyer, doctor, or researcher is definitely possible. Having children is not exclusively a Torah life roadblock. It’s universal to all women who want any and it definitely stalls a career starting with the pregnancy for any woman. For some people living their authentic life is very compatible with living a Torah life and for some people living a Torah life really limits them in a big way depending on what your authentic lifestyle is.
You can still live a Torah Life without getting married at 19 and starting a family at 20. For people that are raised that way, this is an entirely different question.

dankbar

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 6:13 pm

Sienna....why the guilt? How would your life turn out had you had those choices back then? So you would delay starting your family in order to achieve career? You would wait longer to get married? Who says you would've been better off? You lived within your society yes. People would look at you funny! You wouldn't have friends because all your peers have moved on! You might've have been an older miserable single then with limited options of finding your bashert at that age! Most of all, if you wouldn't have all your kids, which one exactly would like to give up?

Another point, something would have to give, if you would be busy building your career while having a lg family with children close in age, you think you would be able to tend to your family same way? What about the repercussions of that?

Why don't you rather look at your nachas, with pleasure, you raised a dor & invested yourself fully in your family & now you reap the fruits of your labor!

Now you are a diff stage as your children are grown....so you can work & keep busy with other things....if you feel a void, empty!

amother

Powderblue

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 6:21 pm

Rena K wrote:

OP sounds young, and like many in her generation, does not want to work hard to "have it all". I might be wrong, so apologies if I misread it. Achieving success in both family (what you perceive to be the "torah" ideal), and personal advancement (what you perceive to be "authentic") requires a huge amount of commitment and self-sacrifice. It seems obvious that you want to chose one and not both and are simply wondering if giving up on the family is ok if in turn you will accomplish a lot in the world.

It's unfortunate that we as a society have ended up in this place. We (mine and generation prior to mine) have paved the way for women to get "out there in the world" by working hard and balancing families and success, often in the name of keeping our husbands in kollel, only to give birth to a generation who wants to follow our external success but not have to work as hard to balance the family. It all comes back in the end, as Hashem has given us maternal instincts and has created the family demand on a mother for a reason. Young people nowadays don't realize that the vast opportunities that we have paved for them have made them confused. But it's important to speak to the right people to understand how decisions made when you are young will greatly impact your life in ways you cannot even imagine now.

So on target, so well-said! Thank you!

amother

Sienna

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 6:27 pm

dankbar wrote:

Obviously, we have no idea how my life would have turned out had I done differently, or if it would have worked out according to plan, but after much thought I realized there was a way to do both. I probably wouldn't have delayed marriage, but would have delayed having children for a year or three. I would have gotten the core training under my belt, and then would have switched gears prioritizing family over career. Once my children would all be of school age, I would then be able to juggle both more easily, coordinating and blending one with the other.

It's the first few years of training that is extremely tough on the family, and I feel that its a much bigger burden on my family now than if I would have gotten it out of the way from the start.

It's precisely your line of thinking that causes people to be pushed into things that aren't for them. Why are the options only - either you get married or have children immediately or you'll end up a lonely single, etc... There's so much grey in between, and it most cases, there's a way to get a handle of both. And I never specified I would have chosen one over the other, I specifically spelled out there's an authentic Torahdik way to do BOTH. The key is finding and knowing the balance, and when to do what.

Fox

Sun, Nov 18 2018, 6:32 pm

Ravenclaw wrote:

Every person has a deep burning desire in them for something. This is your tafkid and you are obligated to use it to serve HASHEM (I.e. every desire can be expressed in a Torahdige way, the question isn’t if you can do it it’s how you do it.) HASHEM wouldn’t have given you the talents, will and passion if you weren’t meant to use it.
Sounds simple right? So why the confusion?
Society, as usual, gets in the way.

Ravenclaw has answered this question more beautifully (and probably in fewer words!) than I ever could.

We live in a society in which the individual is valued above all else. Some elements of that are consistent with Torah, but not all. We forget that we are part of a chain -- every link is important, but not every link will sparkle more than the others.

None of us knows what actions, large or small, most perfectly represent our tafkid. How many stories have we all heard about some small action that had a huge impact on the world?

But most of us would like a tafkid that comes with big payoff in this world -- we want our "authenticity" to be the kind that gets us recognition and kudos. That's the temptation we have to fight. It's great to have work that you like and gives you a sense of fulfillment. But you could ascend to peak levels in your chosen field and that might not be your tafkid -- it might just be your job. Your real, authentic tafkid might be something you paid scant attention to, not realizing the impact it was having.