Question about Osnas (Dina's Daughter) in P' Vayishlach

trixx

Thu, Nov 22 2018, 5:54 pm

heidi wrote:

And yet the baby they produced from the initial relationship died. And Natan hanavi explains it's bcz of their inappropriate relationship. (Don't have a Navi nearby but I'm pretty sure that's the gist)

This was one of the 4 or 5 (different sources) punishments that Dovid received. Nothing to actually do with the innocent child ie not bc he's the product of an "affair".

Ravenclaw

Thu, Nov 22 2018, 6:07 pm

amother wrote:

Please correct me if I'm mistaken but my understanding is that dovid was intimate with an eishes Ish. He got batsheva pregnant and tried to cover it up by having her husband come home from war so it would appear as if he fathered the child. When her husband refused to be intimate, Dovid sent him to the front lines to have him killed so that he could marry batsheva. Is this story accurate?

I also know the story as per SYA. I heard the story like this: Dovid hamelech saw with ruach hakodesh that he was meant to have a child with this woman (that is what the pasuk meant when he saw her—not that he was ch”v overcome with taava) and decided to help what was anyway bashert take place (by sending to war... and everything SYA said about a get before leaving).
His aveira was taking things into his own hands, and not trusting Hashem to allow what was bashert to naturally unfold through Hashem’s ways. Especially in a way that could be misconstrued (and still is.)

Chayalle

Thu, Nov 22 2018, 8:34 pm

Ravenclaw wrote:

In fact, Dovid Hamelech said of this "l'cha l'vadcha chatasi v'hara b'eynecha asisi" implying he sinned only against Hashem - not against Batsheva or Uriah, because she had a get from him and was not an aishes ish. Still, a king is supposed to only do things that look Kosher V'yosher, and by doing something that people talked about, Dovid was sinning against Hashem and doing something that looked bad in the eyes of Hashem. Even if she had a get, what he did was considered inappropriate for a king and caused a Chilul Hashem.

imorethanamother

Thu, Nov 22 2018, 8:57 pm

http://www.academia.edu/196121.....iketz

In this discussion, it was the brothers who wanted to get rid of Osnas, and the mussar that Yaakov gives Shimon and Levi on his deathbed refers to the way they treated Osnas.

It also brings out a poignant point - Osnas and Yosef were incredibly suited for each other - both having been exiled from their own family.

Mommyg8

Thu, Nov 22 2018, 10:06 pm

Quote:

No. There was a conditional get. He did sleep with her. He did try to call Uriah back. Uriah refused to even return home. This was mored b'malchus and instantly deserving of death. Dovid then sent him to the front lines so he wouldn't have to outright kill him.

I think- I learned this a long time ago so I'm not 100% sure - that Uriah was actually mored b'malchus an earlier time as he was part of an uprising against Dovid Hamelech. Dovid didn't kill him at the time, but he was chayav misah so Dovid did have a right to kill him. The only thing was that it did look bad, as Chayalle mentioned, which is why he was punished.

Chazal said כל האומר דוד חטאה אינו אלא טועה .

I also heard that he looked at Bas-sheva and he saw with ruach hakodesh that they would have a child together and eventually Moshiach would come out of this, which was why he did what he did.

etky

Fri, Nov 23 2018, 4:13 am

It bears noting that the approach that has been presented here re David and Batsheva is but one approach in the gemara towards this episode. Chazal are not monolithic in this regard.
The rishonim too are divided and some mefarshim like the Radak and most emphatically the Abravanel insist that David did sin in eshet ish.
The debate in the gemara and among rishonim is not meant to absolve David of moral wrongdoing, but rather to exonerate him formally, (to varying degrees, according to the perush) from the very heavy sins of murder and eshet ish that, among other things, wouid seemingly preclude the continuation of his kingship.

Mommyg8

Sat, Nov 24 2018, 10:49 pm

I just looked into the navi over shabbos, and I saw a very interesting meforish (I think the ralbag?) under the posuk about the birth of Shlomo Hamelech. Dovid named him Shlomo, but Hashem named him Yedidyah. The meforish said that it is obvious from here that Dovid did not actually sin with an ayshes ish, because if a woman is mezaneh she is then forbidden to both her husband and the man she sinned with. If so, Shlomo would not be a legitimate child, so it's obvious from the fact that Hashem called him Yedidyah that he was not born from an illegitimate union.

imasoftov

Sun, Nov 25 2018, 12:13 pm

Zehava wrote:

Is this your only question on tanach? Because if we’re going to start judging it by our sensibilities I have a lot more.

It's not a question on Tanach, it's a question on Midrash.