Would you allow your child to attend non-Jewish college?

amother

Puce

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 10:06 am

At my public university, any form of cheating or plagiarism meant an automatic zero on the paper or test. Now universities run papers through turnitin and other services meant to detect plagiarism.

I didn't encounter much profanity in college either. One of the guys I shared a cubicle with at work sometimes swore at his computer, but I think the boss asked him to tone it down. I found the guys in the next cube who listened to voicemail on speakerphone much more annoying but since they weren't around much (they mostly worked in the field) no one did anything about it.

Mommyg8

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 9:08 pm

amother wrote:

I really wonder how universal your experience is.
I went to public school and regular university in Canada. Cheating was just not done on a massive scale. It wasn't on the radar. I was shocked when I started working at a frum establishment in Israel, and heard many colleagues asking for tips on where to buy papers for their seminar courses at frum colleges (apparently there are a few people in Bnei Brak who will write them for a good price).

Maybe I was naive, but I thought that frum people would cheat less, not more. It was actually the first time I came across massive, open, accepted cheating.

I then did a second degree at Tel Aviv University. I am sure some people cheated, but if they did it was hidden to the nth degree. Even copy-pasting a paragraph without annotating properly could get you in trouble.

As for the language, secular people will swear more, but I have found it's very dependent on geography and socio-economic bracket. I have much of my life among secular people and most of them do not swear that often.

In short, I learned that our stereotypes about frum/secular are often very wrong (at least for me they were, regarding cheating).

The college I went to has an enrollment of about 10,000 people, so I would guess it's fairly common?

I think the language had to do with the fact that I was in community and state colleges. Which are cheaper and easier to get into.

I have spoken to people who went to New York city colleges, and their experience was the same as mine, just much worse.

Mommyg8

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 9:15 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

"And you are surrounded by people who are constantly figuring out ways to do the least work and get the highest mark (I.e. cheat) and aren't embarrassed of it at all. And some teachers actually encouraged it. (And that's when I switched to online classes). "

Sounds exactly like my husband's experience in Touro.. All the yeshiva guys from TV and CB were making paper planes, drinking soda and talking loud in the middle of class..
Some of them were 25, Surprised

There was massive cheating going on...

My husband always tells the joke about , minha in the middle of finals in front of non-J proctor..

The baal tefilla very devoutly and reverently, chanting ha shaila alef alef, ha shaila beis ,,gimmel, ha shaila gimmel beis etc...

When I went all the BY girls were all perfectly behaved goody goody girls, for some reason...

Yup, so now you know that Touro isn't that spesiel, hmmm?

And I just realized that this is a public thread so I think I'll leave it at that.

I'm just wondering - I wrote a longish post, but the only part some of you seemed to have read was just that one sentence. I really don't know why....

It just happens that this particular college I went to was not too bad on that score; I've spoken to people who went to other colleges and they assured me that their college was ten times worse. It was just a bit of a shock for me as in the high school I went to, nobody cheated. Sorry, naturalmom5, but that's really how it was. Looking back, not so sure that was a good thing LOL

(too much pressure). I was just naive, that's all.

But I really didn't think that's what my post was saying Confused

.

ETA: there wasn't really much cheating where I was, I was way more bothered by the language. I just threw in cheating to round out the sentence, I'm really regretting it.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Mon, Dec 03 2018, 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

ectomorph

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 9:16 pm

I attended secular amd jewish college. I didn't see any cheating on either.

In non Jewish classes I experienced a lot of subtle anti semitism. One professor kept on asking anyone who believes in Gd to debate him while staring at me. He also complained that Jews get all the tenured positions.

The muslim girls wouldnt make eye contact or talk to me at all. But neither would the white girls.

This was higher level mathematics classes. Fairly objective grading. I can't imagine if it had been humanities.

amother

Oak

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 9:18 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Universal meaning 'common within the college system' not 'common within the school you attended'.

I suspect there is some correlation between how a college ranks and the 'refinement' of its student base.

Mommyg8

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 9:21 pm

amother wrote:

There are a lot more people attending community colleges than Harvard. So I stand by my original observation.

Yes, sorry I didn't go to Harvard. It's too far Tongue Out

amother

Oak

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 9:26 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

There are a lot more people attending community colleges than Harvard. So I stand by my original observation.

Yes, sorry I didn't go to Harvard. It's too far Tongue Out

So universal within the community college system?

I didn't anything about Harvard. (Though thank-you for acknowledging that your personal experience can't be the gauge of the universal college experience. Do you think if you had gone to Harvard (your example) that you would have included your big "BUT" in your college post).

Mommyg8

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 9:30 pm

amother wrote:

Here's the definition of universal:

"of, affecting, or done by all people or things in the world or in a particular group; applicable to all cases."

According to this definition, nothing is universal as we have all had different experiences.

I would argue that my experience is more common as there are more students in community and state colleges than in elite colleges.

sub

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 10:00 pm

anon for this wrote:

Personally I believe that G-d has no physical form. Rashi notes in his commentary on Torah that when the Torah speaks of G-d's physical characteristics, it is using a metaphor that people can understand and relate to. Therefore I believe that She is just as correct as He when referring to G-d. Do you and/or your daughter believe that G-d is physically male?

Of course a student should never be derided for religious practices. But it would not occur to me to ask a professor about lighting chanuka candles on campus unless that professor also was the contact for student life or similar.

She did not ask the prof anything. She was discussing it with another student who had the same question and the professor put in her 2 cents. It wasn’t a class discussion or debate.

And while the word שכינה is a female noun. The word הוא and male nouns are used more הקדוש ברוך הוא. מלך העולם. ברוך אתה. Yes Hashem has no form but we do not have to change things just because the rest of the world is being too politically correct.

sub

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 10:12 pm

imasoftov wrote:

I'd think someone who thought that was terrible would capitalize the G.

True it should be capitalized. Interesting how some on this site find it important to point out little things. Mistakes do happen.
O. K. I will strive to edit and re- edit until it’s perfect. But wait, there is no such thing as perfect except for Hashem (or HASHEM) who has no form.

amother

Maroon

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 10:25 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Community college is a completely different environment than a good college. I’ve taken classes at community college through Ivy League schools.

Mommyg8

Mon, Dec 03 2018, 10:29 pm

amother wrote:

Community college is a completely different environment than a good college. I’ve taken classes at community college through Ivy League schools.

I'm not sure what we are arguing here.

Yes, of course, the more elite schools will attract people who are more socially polished. And a college that is affiliated with a religious order, such as Georgian Court in Lakewood, will have students who are more refined. So???

anon for this

Wed, Dec 05 2018, 8:45 am

sub wrote:

Then the professor was rude to intrude on a private conversation that wasn't taking place during class time.

So you acknowledge that G-d has no physical form, and referring to G-d as female is only wrong because it's "too politically correct". I am not sure how that would be challenging to your or your daughter's religious beliefs.

Given that G-d is sometimes referred to using female pronouns, do you likewise object to those who always refer to G-d as "He"?