What to say to a drunk at a kiddish?

ally

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 5:10 am

amother wrote:

Why isn't the wife responsible if she won't let him come home drunk? She puts her problem on the community.

Because the wife can only control her home. And good for her for placing boundaries.

People in the community can also place their own boundaries.

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 6:04 am

So tell them/him in advance its invitation only.

If someone behaved unacceptably in my home I would want to know I can rely on DH to protect our boundaries and show him out. He can also talk to invited men about this first, collectively showing this gentleman the door, and make a plan if you all insist on letting him come in in the first place.

Or perhaps its only upsetting you and not DH...?

Though if theres vomit involved is he cleaning it up?

amother

Green

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 6:18 am

In private when the drunks are sober your dh must set healthy boundaries. Even if he needs to blame others. The women & children get upset, although we love having guests, we are not allowing anyone who is drunk into our home on shabbos. If you are there drunk, I will have to ask you to leave. Consider yourself warned.

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 7:03 am

You are enabling this drunk by creating a place where he can come and drink.

The wife and FIL are not responsible for his behavior. He is an adult. He is responsible for himself, and so are all the people who create a place where they allow him to come and engage in it.

amother

Royalblue

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 7:08 am

Not sure when alcohol became such an accepted welcome thing, in fact the highlight, at frum events. I don’t see any good that comes from it. This culture is harming our kids. They are growing up to see drinking as just something you do and excessive drinking as ok. You can talk to me all you want about “responsible drinking,” but these kiddush/drinking parties are not worth the pleasure of drinking with family and friends when we have to wonder how to handle the drunks who show up at the door while our kids watch their behavior.

Iymnok

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 7:09 am

amother wrote:

Lets imagine for a moment, that my family and I are at your house for Shabbos. I have a few impressionable kids, and a DH who is working on keeping his alcohol intake to a normal level. So far he's doing great, and I'm really proud of him.

Now, the loud drunk comes in, sits down, and starts in with his obnoxious behavior.

If your DH asks him to leave, and there is a scene, I will not be upset. I will be grateful, because then I will feel like my hosts are protecting the other guests, and that we will be able to enjoy a peaceful seudah without further drama.

Throw the bum out!

This!
This drunk is making a scene. Your DH (or you) would be respecting the sensitivities of all the others present.
Your guests would appreciate it.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 7:16 am

amother wrote:

Thank you for that perspective. Do you think others where there is no alcohol problems in the family would feel the same way?

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 7:25 am

amother wrote:

It upsets me and the kids. DH is a live and let live type of guy. He doesn't see it as a reflection of our house while I do. He is only upset because I am upset.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 7:42 am

Chayalle wrote:

This guy shows up when people are having sudars if there are no kiddishes. It is interesting that you feel his family has no responsibility for him because he is an adult, yet the community is responsible because we celebrate Shabbos the way we have done for generations with kiddishes and sudars.

I want to add that he is sloppy drunk at open kiddishes also. Should those also be eliminated?

Alternative

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 7:53 am

Yes, I think your community has a problem if you can name three drunks off the top of your head, who regularly come to these events.

It doesnt matter if this drinking custom has been going on for generations. When something becomes a problem, it's time to change.

Also I am willing to bet that 50 or 100 years ago, if a drunk entered a gvir's kiddush and started vomiting, they would have kicked him out pronto.
Anyway, things were different then. Homes were different, kiddushes were different, probably only the richer people hosted, and they had servants to take care of the riff raff.

So yes, I would stop with serving alcohol for now. Or limit it very much (pass out one cup, and after that it's 'finished').
I have never seen a drunk man at our shul or at a kiddush, and I suppose it's because:
a) our circles dont have a drinking culture
b) only sweet kiddush wine is served, and that doesnt attract the town drunk

amother

Maroon

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 7:54 am

amother wrote:

I'm getting the impression that you really don't want to say no. I assume if he shows up at a seuda, people just show him the door. Or does he just pull up a chair and sit down at the dining room table?

What do you mean by an "open Kiddush"? At a private home, the host can ask him to leave. At shul, it's up to the rabbi and board members, or whoever is sponsoring the event.

It is always appropriate to send a drunk home. The community is responsible to send him to his family. The family's job isn't to chain him up in the basement, but that doesn't mean you have to serve him drinks.

There seems to be an awful lot of drinking going on here. You may not think it's dangerous, but it's setting a bad example for the next generation. Can you really not have fun without alcohol?

FranticFrummie

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 8:03 am

In my shul back in the US, all alcohol was dispensed by a few men who watched it like a hawk. There was a strict rule of one shot per person, and that's it. As soon as everyone got, the bottles were put away. If you missed the kiddush and came late, that was too bad.

Sure, a couple of people griped now and then, but the vast majority of the people were extremely satisfied with the arrangement.

At lunch, there may be a half a glass of wine, or non-alcoholic cider, depending on the guests and the hosts. Maybe, but rarely, was there a shot of alcohol between fish and meat.

We didn't have any problems with people behaving themselves, because reasonable boundaries and expectations were put in place.

At my shul in Israel, they don't even get hard alcohol, just a tiny glass of that horribly sweet wine.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 8:20 am

Alternative wrote:

An open kiddish is where the whole community is invited. Notices are sent out and posted in the shuls.

The alcohol is on the men's side primarily, so I have no say so about what goes on there except when it is in my home and DH has as much say so as me.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 8:30 am

amother wrote:

I agree the community is responsible to send him to his family. But the wife won't have him drunk in her parents' house. You can't leave him in the street. I think the men should escort him there and leave him on the porch.

I don't allow underage drinking, and I don't drink myself. Few of my friends drink. No one gets Purim drunk but a few isolated lushes. The drinking is primarily limited to Shabbos day on the mens side. I have zero control what goes on there.

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 9:01 am

amother wrote:

The Hebrew word is Seuda not sudars. Has been that way for generations. Just saying.

As soon as you create a situation in which he can indulge in his drinking habits, you are responsible.

His family has already shown that they are responsible by not making a place for drinking available to him, and making it clear to him that he cannot come home to them drunk. You are making it impossible for them to do anything more, by allowing him in.

You have 2 choices:

1. Make no alchohol available at your Seudas and Kiddushim.
2. Don't let him in if you do have alcohol available.

Chayalle

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 9:04 am

amother wrote:

Maybe that would be what it takes.

I have a relative who told her husband that if he gets drunk on Purim, she will not allow him home. She stuck to her word. He ended up sleeping on a bench in a shul till it wore off. Many do-gooders called her to ~~rub it in~~ inform her that her husband is sleeping on a bench...and she said, fine, leave him there.

This was quite a few years ago, and he has not become drunk ever since.