What to say to a drunk at a kiddish?

Iymnok

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 3:19 am

Do what many do. Between fish and meat serve each guest their preferred drink. Since the drinks are stored in a locked cabinet, each guest gets one. The only additional alcohol could (occasionally) be a bottle of nice wine.
More than thatis excessive for a family meal.
An open cabinet is too much of an invitation for an alcoholic. Maybe also for those just within the drinking age.

Put the guy on the sidewalk outside your house. Maybe he will reach rock bottom today and finally get help. A constant refusal of entry may also cause him to realize that he has made himself into an outcast.
But you are happy to have him back when he has proof of sobriety and is invited (with his family).

imasoftov

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 3:41 am

amother wrote:

Not sure when alcohol became such an accepted welcome thing

Sources from the time of the Acharonim appear here. The criterion for using a beverage for daytime kiddush is that it's something that would be served to a guest. So it seems to me the answer to your question is at least as long ago as those sources, but I suspect it's from whatever year someone first tasted what came out of a still. Or perhaps the following evening ...

I don't count the Gemara because it's may not be talking about liquor but about beer made from dates, it's unclear if in the time Chazal they had the technology to produce the alcohol levels that separate beer and wine from liquors but there archeological evidence of things that could be stills from much earlier.

amother

Mint

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 5:08 am

Just going to say this:

We have an open home. People come in and out for meals etc if anyone does anything I deem inappropriate like excessive drinking— I or my husband will see them out. My children are top priority and they should never see this.

#2 we personally like good wine but not whiskey or liquor so I can’t relate to the open bar kind of thing BUT as someone who knows a thing or two about addiction I’ll say this: addicts of any sort will take zero responsibility for their action so long as someone else is. Good for the wife for saying that he can do whatever he wishes but not on her turf. She is giving him ownership. And yes cold and homeless is the #1 time many men in recovery will tell u that they stood there and said “Whar has become of me?!” And that’s when real deal work begins

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 6:32 am

gamanit wrote:

I know that his wife is human and doesn't deserve to have him dumped at her door. Think about it from her perspective for just one minute here. I am completely not worried about him for the moment. He did it all to himself. She did nothing to deserve this.

Why is idiotic for you to shut away your alcohol when you know he's been drinking it? It would be idiotic for another house where he has never shown up before to do so but being as he has been in your house multiple times in the past it is certainly a reasonable precaution. I'm not telling you to go hanging signs around your neighborhood warning people to lock up their alcohol when he's in town- just saying that you should be doing a reasonable effort not to allow this to happen in your home.

It is idiotic because I invite people to a kiddish. I am not changing my house to accommodate one uninvited alcoholic. Should I not serve food because someone with an eating disorder can't control themselves?

His wife doesn't care about the people she inflicts her husband on. If I had a mentally ill husband I would not bring him into town and make him anyone else's problem. This guy is ill.

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 6:37 am

[quote="amother"]

Quote:

I'm not sure why the men's side in your own house is out of your control.

Here's an experiment for you: this week, send out an announcement that the kiddush will be alcohol free, but there will be lots of good food as usual. See who turns up.

Did you even read the thead? The kiddish is not by announcement. It is invitation only. I have said this numerous times.

I am not changing the way we socialize because of one uninvited drunk. How many times do I have to say this?

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 6:43 am

DrMom wrote:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

OP, if you refuse to do anything -- such as implement any of the dozens of suggestions offered here -- you should expect your drunkard guest to appear as usual.

DrMom,

Usually your reading comprehension is better. I arrived at a solution. The ladies don't like it. I am alternating nothing in my house except to have the drunk walked home next time he makes a scene. My problem ends when he arrives home. I will not be having him back.

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 7:27 am

Iymnok wrote:

I have no interest in having him back. I have no interest in socializing with his wife. He is uninvited and will remain so.

I am not installing locks on my liquor cabinets. Locks are expensive and unsightly. They are an insult to normal people.

It's not happening.

imasinger

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 7:28 am

OP, my problem with the solution you are planning is that it is reactive, not proactive.

You KNOW that he will come again uninvited. You KNOW that he will get drunk enough to cause a scene. And yet, you are planning to wait until that happens to escort him from your premises and tell him he can't come back.

Let's say it happens that way. And the guy is too inebriated to remember that you told him he's not welcome back, so he shows up at your doorstep another Shabbos.

What would your DH do?

And if DH would tell him that previous time he got too drunk, and therefore is not welcome inside, why isn't DH willing to say that now?

Why facilitate and enable one more drunken scene before announcing that the line was crossed? Is that in anyone's best interest?

Iymnok

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 8:39 am

I have seen many beautiful liquor oewine cabinets with simple, sometimes elegant locks. It is very common since the drinks are often expensive. I have heard of guests and hired help helping themselves. It is also smart if children may get to them.

She is not dumping her husband on the community. She is coming to visit her parents. He has denied himself the welcome as soon as he started with the drinks. Everyone can learn from her and her family.

amother

Lawngreen

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 8:49 am

amother wrote:

His wife doesn't care about the people she inflicts her husband on. If I had a mentally ill husband I would not bring him into town and make him anyone else's problem. This guy is ill.

Assuming much? The wife probably has no choice at all, and is doing what she has to do. Its very likely she is doing what she was told to by professionals. She is not inflicting her husband on any one, he is doing that totally of his own accord.

And no one is born with alcoholism, it develops by choices in life. And there are ways to overcome it. Mental illness is not something anyone chooses to do, and there's no set path to overcome it. Comparing the two is completely inappropriate.

You can't seem to get past blaming the wife for something that is totally out of her control. I don't understand why you are displaying such anger to the wife (the victim) and showing an awful lot of concern for the perpetrator (the husband) here. Those perspectives need to be switched around.

imasinger

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 9:16 am

lymnok wrote:

Everyone can learn from her and her family.

Or at least, from her. I'm not sure about the family.

I actually think OP's DH should speak to his friend the FIL. Tell him to have a straight conversation with his DD as to whether she wants him allowing/encouraging her DH to accompany him to an alcohol kiddush in the community. And also to consult with a rav on the issue.

octopus

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 9:31 am

amother wrote:

You keep on going on and on about the wife. Don't you get it? The husband is responsible for his own actions. She is not responsible for them. That is what everyone is trying to tell you.

octopus

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 9:33 am

amother wrote:

Right. so nothing is going to change. And you will keep on complaining about the same thing over and over again. You don't have control of how others act. But you do have control over what you do.

DrMom

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 9:43 am

amother wrote:

So the plan is to allow him to come and get drunk one more time, and have him walked home.

Then what happens if he gets drunk at the next kiddush? *Then* will you stop him from coming altogether?

Your plan is not clear to me.

Chayalle

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 9:49 am

amother wrote:

I think this post is disgusting.

The wife is not inflicting her husband on anybody. He is inflicting himself. And you are willing to give him alcohol (which she isn't willing to do) and then dump him back on her. You are not taking responsibility for the alcohol you are distributing.

Ugh.

Your last line is disgusting, too. As if a man's issues are all his wife's problem. You are basically blaming women for what men do.

abound

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 10:12 am

Why you keep shifting blame to the wife is beyond me and disgusting.
The person to blame is the drunk guy himself.
You and your husband also carry some blame for enabling. Stop shifting the blame from yourself onto his wife.

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 10:31 am

imasinger wrote:

There are two reasons to do this the way DH and I worked out. It is non-negotiable. The first and most important reason is shalom bias. DH is ok with this plan. He never realized before how much the drunk sil bothered me. The second reason is the drunk sil is behaving himself lately. His wife telling him he couldn't come home drunk seems to have an effect.

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 1:28 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Aah....so there is something to a wife setting boundaries. Good for her.

I totally agree that it is the wife's place to modify her husband rather than a stranger's.

Chayalle

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 1:36 pm

amother wrote:

I totally agree that it is the wife's place to modify her husband rather than a stranger's.

No, that's not what I said.

I said a wife can place boundaries to protect herself. It is totally NOT a wife's job to modify (or a better word would be change) her husband.

You know what you sound like? Why can't all those people with issues that don't float my boat - mental illness, alcoholism, etc - go live on some island somewhere so that I don't have to deal with it? This is cramping my style! I wanna do whatever I want, and not deal with any unpleasant repercussions.

Sorry honey. Women aren't responsible for their menfolk. They don't have to (or get to) lock them up, they don't have to keep them out of your town, they don't have to take responsibility for them, and they don't have to try to change them (they are rarely successful when they do try). They can set boundaries under which they refuse to be near them, to try to evoke change and to protect themselves. That's about it.