Jewish Genetic Diseases - Why?

daagahminayin

Thu, Dec 13 2018, 8:59 pm

I’m asking from a hashkafic point of view, not scientific.

There are a number of genetic diseases common to Ashkenazi Jews.

Pre-question: Does this mean that Ashkenazi Jews have higher numbers of genetic diseases than the general population, or not because each ethnic group has its own common genetic diseases?

Question: if the answer above is yes, why would Hashem give this challenge to the Jewish population, especially since the Torah places so much emphasis on having and raising children? You would think we would be blessed to have lower rates of diseases (and no doubt that would make a great talking point in a kiruv class!)

Is it because we are especially capable of taking care of the special children born with genetic diseases?

Is it so that more special neshamas with very little left to fix in this world can come down as special needs children into Jewish families?

Is it a question without an answer?

If the answer to the pre-question is no, disregard the above.

lucky14

Thu, Dec 13 2018, 9:11 pm

amother wrote:

Ashkenazi Jews are an ideal population to study, which makes them over-represented in genetic research. It's impossible to say whether or not they're more likely to carry genetic disorders.

I was wondering about this. We're more likely to carry certain ones, but what about in all total out of all the thousands of them out there- are we more likely to be carriers of any genetic disease vs a not jewish person, or only more likely to be carriers to certain ones.

amother

Pumpkin

Thu, Dec 13 2018, 9:26 pm

daagahminayin wrote:

I think this is similar to the age old question of why bad things happen to good people. There's no answer. Why did the holocaust happen? Why did a man with with 8 children get killed after getting hit by a car after shul motzei shabbos after he declined a ride home because he held rabbeinu tam? There are just no answers.

daagahminayin

Thu, Dec 13 2018, 9:33 pm

Amarante wrote:

Ashkanazi also represent a status ally small genetic pool.

Almost every Ashkanazi Jew is a third or fourth cousin. Therefore recessive genes are more likely to be carried by potential mates than if people married in a larger population group.

Right, so I guess you’ve clarified my basic hashkafic question: our small gene pool comes from not marrying out. Why did Hashem set it up that we would get this negative consequence from following halacha?

amother

Scarlet

Thu, Dec 13 2018, 9:47 pm

daagahminayin wrote:

There's no halacha that Ashkenazi Jews can't marry Egyptian Jews or Greek Jews or North African Jews. That's entirely self-imposed.

Redbird

Thu, Dec 13 2018, 9:48 pm

We don't have a higher rate genetic diseases? I find it surprising if so. Aside what dor yishorim checks for, we also have a higher rate of reproductive and colon cancer genes...

I heard opinion from a someone: all the non-jews were only created for the sake of the Jews. And the only reason why they get diseases is so that it shouldn't look weird if only we do. Can't Believe It

Redbird

Thu, Dec 13 2018, 9:53 pm

amother wrote:

There's no halacha that Ashkenazi Jews can't marry Egyptian Jews or Greek Jews or North African Jews. That's entirely self-imposed.

It's not "self imposed" persay. Plenty of people do marry outside their circles. But for hundreds of years Jews didn't move across the globe like they do now... People would marry people from there own small town (which would likely be a cousin.)

Laiya

Thu, Dec 13 2018, 9:53 pm

amother wrote:

There's no halacha that Ashkenazi Jews can't marry Egyptian Jews or Greek Jews or North African Jews. That's entirely self-imposed.

Not self-imposed.

Imposed by centuries of anti-semitic European rulers who issued laws restricting Jews' rights to travel and engage in specific professions.

Eta. Cross posted with Red-bird

Laiya

Thu, Dec 13 2018, 9:57 pm

daagahminayin wrote:

I feel like you could say this about anything. Jews were persecuted for being Jews, for keeping Torah and mitzvos. Why were they punished for doing the right thing?

Amarante

Thu, Dec 13 2018, 10:00 pm

Redbird wrote:

That would be true of every pre industrial society.

The reality is that Ashkenazi represent a modern version of a genetically pure population.

Other groups may carry genetic disorders but most serious genetic diseases are recessive because if they weren’t, the population would be decimated in a relatively short period of time. So in a large population group, it’s less likely that two.carriers of a rare genetic disorder will marry and have children. And so since the diseases tend to be recessive, the mates are carriers and the child has the disease only if two recessive genes are passed. Obviously this is a simplified explanation.

ETA that one example of a rare fatal genetic disorder for a serious fatal disease that is dominant is Huntington’s Chorea. It is dominant so it only takes one parent to pass the gene. However it doesn’t manifest itself until early middle age and so by then the person would have married and had children to whom he or she might have unwittingly passed the gene and the disease. There is now a genetic test but it creates a dilemma since if one tests positive, one then knows one is going to die a horrible death at a young age so one is counseled prior to taking the genetic test. With Jewish genetic diseases, testing is done to prevent bearing children with another carrier of a recessive gene.

The royal families descended from Queen Victoria were inbred and carried the gene for hemophilia. At least my murky recall of European history is that it was British in origin.

Last edited by Amarante on Fri, Dec 14 2018, 6:29 am; edited 3 times in total

imasoftov

Fri, Dec 14 2018, 1:23 am

daagahminayin wrote:

I have no idea about the pre-question. All I've been able to find online is that we have a higher rate of a number of conditions.

But if true, it's a question without an answer.

amother

Periwinkle

Fri, Dec 14 2018, 1:49 am

As posters have mentioned, Jews were historically endogamous, marrying within the group. So a genetic defect which might have gotten diffused is magnified instead.

Some genetic defects may confer benefits that we don't yet understand. We know, for example, that people who are predisposed to sickle cell anemia are also protected from malaria. It's a kind of genetic trade-off.

WhatFor

Fri, Dec 14 2018, 2:10 am

Answer to prequestion: likely yes. Maybe not more than all populations but more than most other populations generally. If there are other insular groups that tend to only marry in, you might find a similar thing happening.
I think that Ashkenazi Jews represent a unique group in that our genetics represent insularity but we are also worldly in that we're likely to be available and willing to be tested. Other insular tribes might not be as available for genetic testing.

Answer to Question: From a hashkafic perspective, first, it's not a halacha that Ashkenazi Jews may only marry Ashkenaz. For hundreds of years we were persecuted and ghettoized in Europe and so much of the insularity is not by choice.

Second, genetic purity is not a Jewish value. We are commanded to welcome the ger and never to make them feel like an outcast. Of course we don't proselytize but again this points to our value system not discouraging genetic mixing. Genetics don't determine Judaism and Jews can marry other Jews regardless of their genes.

Finally, no we wouldn't necessarily see brachot in this world from keeping the Torah. That's a simplistic way of understanding God. However, I agree it would be cruel to impose a commandment that necessarily resulted in horrible results for our children. I just don't believe that the illnesses are a result of a mitzvah, rather it's a result of centuries of persecution and science. That leads to the question of why God allowed us to be persecuted for so long. And for that I have no satisfying answer.

Ruchel

Fri, Dec 14 2018, 6:15 am

What?? NO, Hashem doesn't create sick children so we care for them.
Every group with limited population has this.

That said even in places with more variety, very often Ashky married Ashky, Sephardi Sephardi etc, until "recently" in history (this can be 300 years, this can be 30). Of course in some places it happened before: the Arizal is half half - his mother is a Frances like my grandmother zal. BUT he also married his first cousin.