How do 'young' couples support themselves financially?

TightRopeWalker

Thu, May 31 2007, 7:13 pm

We got married young (I was 18, my hubby 20), and while I can't say that it did not present its challenges we have always been able to pay our bills. Neither set of parents were or are in a position to help financially. My husband was in school full time and working full time for the first year of our marriage. I too worked more than full time until my oldest was born 14 months later. We are still paying off student loans (that he took out to get his degree b4 we were even married, his parents could not help). Being just the two of us, I found even living in Bklyn we were able to survive on very little. We tried to put away most of my salary. We put away our Chasunah money (a whopping $3500), and lived simply (we still do, including not replacing any of the 2nd hand furniture WE bought). I stayed home for the most part (did some per diem) with my older kids, but now that we have started paying tuitions I have returned to work. It pains me every day I leave my baby, but I hope it's only temporary. I have yet to finish college, but I think I am making decent money considering how long I have been out of the work force. If you are motivated it's possible. I still hope to finish school. We are married quite a few years, and are still renting. I hope to one day be able to give my kids a backyard of their own. We no longer live in Bklyn, but the cost of living is still high. Given our jobs, leaving the NY area did not make sense. I think if a couple is prepared for it they can do it, but they need to know it will be tough. Not all young couples are prepared to struggle. I would not trade my kids for anything, but given the chance to do it over I would have liked if I had met dh a couple years later. By then we both would have finished school and had some money put away. Starting a marriage with little or no financial resources is a strain. I can't say I reccomend it, but it can be done!

Motek

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 11:48 am

shalhevet wrote:

So when people are in financial difficulties they have to cut back on Shabbos expenses too.

The Gemara in Beitza 15b says that Hashem says to the Jewish people with a term of endearment, "Banai, l'vu alai v'kadshu ha'yom, v'haaminu Bi, v'Ani poreia" (My children, take out a loan on My account, sanctify the day, and trust in Me, and I will pay it).''

The Gemara is saying that if someone takes a loan (that's not the same as taking tzedaka) in honor of the mitzva, in honor of Shabbos, he will be reimbursed. You can't fool G-d. If it's to show off, and not l'kavod Shabbos, he won't be reimbursed.

The story about Yosef Mokir Shabbos (Shabbos 119a) ends with the Gemara saying that Yosef met an elderly sage (maybe Eliyahu Ha'Navi) who told him that he got such a reward (the jewel in the fish) because he had borrowed money to honor Shabbos.

The meforshim explain: Why should a person ever be allowed to borrow money? Why shouldn't he say, if Hashem has not given me the money, we should just do without?

The answer is that when something is important enough, like buying a home or marrying off a child (or medical expenses or education), then it's understood that these require loans and people are willing go into debt for major expenses. The Gemara is showing us that spending for Shabbos and Yom Tov (and tuition) should be like these major expenses for which people don't hesitate to take loans.

shalhevet

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 1:48 pm

Motek, you are only allowed to take out a loan, al pi halacha, if you know you have a means of paying it back.

Maybe all the people you know sometimes take out loans for fancy sheitels and clothes l'kovod Shabbos. But I know plenty of people who scrimp and save just to have some form of basar v'dagim.

Quote:

The answer is that when something is important enough, like buying a home or marrying off a child (or medical expenses or education), then it's understood that these require loans and people are willing go into debt for major expenses. The Gemara is showing us that spending for Shabbos and Yom Tov (and tuition) should be like these major expenses for which people don't hesitate to take loans.

Maybe the people YOU know don't hesitate to take loans for such things. And maybe the homes they buy and the weddings they make are not quite like the homes and the weddings of the people eating tuna and chicken.

BTW, did you read my previous post? So how would you explain that gemorra?

Motek

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 6:07 pm

I have no idea why you are personalizing this discussion shalhevet. Who I know and who you know and what they buy is irrelevant to this discussion. I read what I posted in an article about Yom Tov expenses. It was brought in the name of Rabbi Moshe Goldberger, author of sefarim such as "Priorities in Tzedaka: Higher Forms of Giving," but I didn't mention him since the part I posted were sources he quoted, but since you challenge what I wrote, I now mention that I am repeating what he said. Naturally, another rav can differ.

shalhevet wrote:

Motek, you are only allowed to take out a loan, al pi halacha, if you know you have a means of paying it back.

The point of the Gemara is that Hashem takes responsibility so of course a person knows he can pay it back.

Quote:

could very well be, so what? nobody mentioned what sort of wedding or home is being bought as it's besides the point

explain which Gemara? about al titztarech la'briyos? sounds to me like taking tzedaka

shalhevet

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 7:07 pm

Motek wrote:

breslov wrote:

Go away for shabbos often, or at least don't have a million guests over. The more guests you have, the more expensive buying all the food for them is. And if you make shabbos, you don't need beef. Or gefilte fish. You can use chicken and tuna fish and you got your bussar vidagim.

Ever hear the Chazal that what you spend on Shabbos, Hashem pays you back? Story of Yosef Mokir Shabbos? That what you spend l'kavod Shabbos does not come out of what was designated for you on Rosh Hashana? That the best and finest is for Shabbos?

Shabbos is not a time to scrimp!

Motek, you were the one who brought this up, when you clearly have no idea of how some people live. You wrote a response to a young couple in Israel that it was wrong for them to be making Shabbos on a certain standard that you felt lacked kavod Shabbos. What people spend on Shabbos is relative to what they have.

Quote:

shalhevet wrote:
Motek, you are only allowed to take out a loan, al pi halacha, if you know you have a means of paying it back.

The point of the Gemara is that Hashem takes responsibility so of course a person knows he can pay it back.

Well, if we explain the halacha like you do, when would it ever apply? I learned that a person is not allowed to take a loan unless he knows how to pay it back by natural means, not by relying on miracles (unless of course it's pikuach nefesh).

Quote:

Quote:
Maybe the people YOU know don't hesitate to take loans for such things. And maybe the homes they buy and the weddings they make are not quite like the homes and the weddings of the people eating tuna and chicken.

could very well be, so what? nobody mentioned what sort of wedding or home is being bought as it's besides the point

It is too the point, because you were raising questions on the level of kovod Shabbos of a couple, whereas for them it probably is real kovod Shabbos. Of course someone who goes out to eat in fancy restaurants should be buying the finest food for Shabbos. But if someone eats the cheapest food he can get away with all week, don't you think his Shabbos standards will also be lower and still be considered kovod Shabbos? In fact maybe by buying tuna and chicken he is making more of a sacrifice for Shabbos than his rich cousin buying beef?

Quote:

explain which Gemara? about al titztarech la'briyos? sounds to me like taking tzedaka

We say in bentching
ונא אל תצריכנו... לא לידי בשר ודם ולא לידי הלוואתם
which is pretty much a proof that 'tiztarech' also means loans.

Motek

Sun, Oct 21 2007, 9:06 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Motek, you were the one who brought this up, when you clearly have no idea of how some people live.

So you persist on negatively personalizing it ...

Quote:

You wrote a response to a young couple in Israel that it was wrong for them to be making Shabbos on a certain standard that you felt lacked kavod Shabbos. What people spend on Shabbos is relative to what they have.

and you wrote, and I agree with you, that to go away for Shabbos often is not very nice in this context. The tone/attitude of that entire post was off-putting to me.

Quote:

Well, if we explain the halacha like you do, when would it ever apply?

It was brought to my attention that in S.Aruch Ha'Rav (hilchos Shabbos, 242, halacha 3) he explains that borrowing is when you have items to pawn. If you don't have items to pawn, then you shouldn't borrow.

I thought of that very line in bentching as I posted my post. Of course we daven not to need gifts or to borrow. But l'kavod Shabbos, if one has items to pawn, he can borrow and Hashem will help.