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Any male to female romanticism in the Torah?



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amother
Blonde


 

Post Sun, Jan 06 2019, 10:16 pm
My husband's rav said that the whole proposal by engagement, red roses etc comes from the non jews. My husband did propose with roses because rav said since its mainstream today in our community, he should. Got me thinking...by story of Adam and chava medrash says Hashem beautified chava for adam and braided her hair nicely etc but does it say anything about how Adam made chava feel good? Or is that not a Torahdik concept? Are there any Torah sources of a husband being romantic to his wife or being supportive?
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amother
Violet


 

Post Sun, Jan 06 2019, 10:23 pm
X

Last edited by amother on Sun, Jan 06 2019, 11:53 pm; edited 2 times in total
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chicco




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jan 06 2019, 10:31 pm
What about all of the gifts Eliezer brought for Rivka? Or how Yaakov cried because Eliphaz took all of the gifts he had for Rachel?
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Mon, Jan 07 2019, 12:01 am
Yaakov Avinu kisses Rachel when they meet. However you want to explain that medrashically, Hashem chose to put that in Chumash.

Moshe Rabbenu fought off bullies and impressed his future wife.

The Torah isn't focused on romance, so it doesn't come up very much. But this generation did not invent romantic love.

When the Rambam wants to explain love of Hashem, he uses the example of a man who is lovesick and can't think of anything but his beloved.

Some people are more romantic types, some less so, but I would stay very far away from a rabbi who thinks that expending energy to make a woman feel loved is a waste of time.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 07 2019, 12:18 am
Romance always existed, although some writers like Akunin or Stoppard claim it was “invented” at a certain point. In reality, there have always been sensitive kindly men and rude boorish pigs - and of course plenty of good men who are not the “romantic types.” The typical attributes of romance might vary from culture to culture, but making your wife feel good and supported is always a wonderful thing. No person with common sense would say otherwise.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 07 2019, 2:47 am
Yaakov toiled for 14 years to marry Rachel. That's pretty romantic.

Shir HaShirim talks pretty frankly about physical attraction.

If being romantic is important to you, your DH should make an effort to do this, even if it is not explicitly mentioned in Torah (as long as it does not contradict Torah, of course). Shalom bayit is certainly something encouraged by our religion.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:28 am
Aside from the 'romantic by any measure' story of Yaacov laboring for Rachel's hand, the Torah tells us explicitly that Yitzhak loved Rivkah. And when she proved to be barren we are told that he prayed on her behalf to Hashem.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:30 am
Shir haShirim does talk about physical attraction, but if you look at how it's written, it's obvious that there's something even deeper there. I can't imagine it having been written without a concept of romance as well. Talking of love and longing, togetherness, all of that is much more than admiring beauty.

Har Sinai covered itself in flowers when it was time to receive the Torah.

Just because we are not supposed to copy non Jewish expressions of pagan fertility festivals (st valentine, etc) doesn't mean we don't have romantic concepts of our own.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jan 07 2019, 3:44 am
If we're talking Tanach and not just the Torah, then the first thing that comes to mind is the relationship of Elkanah and Hanna. Another image that always struck me as so poignant is that of Paltiel ben Layish crying as he escorted Michal to Bachurim when forced to hand her over to David who had decided to reclaim her as a wife.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 09 2019, 5:39 am
etky wrote:
If we're talking Tanach and not just the Torah, then the first thing that comes to mind is the relationship of Elkanah and Hanna.

Elkana is simultaneously touching and clueless, but at least he tried. Eli was also wrong about Channa but he did apologize after he found out. I wonder if there's some deliberate irony that today we pray instead of have Cohanim bring sacrifices for us and we learned how to do that from Channa.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 09 2019, 6:06 am
chicco wrote:
What about all of the gifts Eliezer brought for Rivka? Or how Yaakov cried because Eliphaz took all of the gifts he had for Rachel?

I don't think a gift you already had before you met the recipient is the most romantic thing ... And that's Yaakov and Rachel. Yitzchak didn't even send those gifts to Rivka, Avraham did.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 09 2019, 6:07 am
amother wrote:
Moshe Rabbenu fought off bullies and impressed his future wife.

I think this is an example of decent behavior, not romantic, as he was not trying to impress her. Whether it was she who was impressed or her father is another question.
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Wed, Jan 09 2019, 6:21 am
imasoftov wrote:
I think this is an example of decent behavior, not romantic, as he was not trying to impress her. Whether it was she who was impressed or her father is another question.


Fair enough. But Yaakov's love for Rachel certainly stands as romantic.
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abound




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 09 2019, 6:27 am
there is a big difference with being romantic as a husband and with being romantic as a chosson.
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tf




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 09 2019, 8:35 am
I wonder about verbalizing emotions.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 09 2019, 9:14 am
imasoftov wrote:
Elkana is simultaneously touching and clueless, but at least he tried. Eli was also wrong about Channa but he did apologize after he found out. I wonder if there's some deliberate irony that today we pray instead of have Cohanim bring sacrifices for us and we learned how to do that from Channa.


This is a very interesting point - especially in view of the opinion in chazal that tefilot were instituted after the churban in lieu of the korbanut. I wonder if the fact that this story dramatically demonstrates how effectively prayer trumped sacrifices, somehow encouraged the upholding of Hanna's prayer as emblematic of how standardized prayer, which replaced sacrifices, should be conducted.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jan 09 2019, 9:23 am
imasoftov wrote:
I think this is an example of decent behavior, not romantic, as he was not trying to impress her. Whether it was she who was impressed or her father is another question.


I agree. The story serves to demonstrate Moshe's decency and sense of justice (like the story of killing the Egyptian) which later qualify him to lead a nation. True, the 'meeting at the well' is a type-scene that is associated with marriage but here - as opposed to the Yaacov/Rachel scene - there doesn't seem to be any romance involved.
Truthfully, it always seemed to me that the Moshe/Yitro relationship was a much more significant bond of mutual appreciation than the Moshe/Tzippora relationship which, from the little we know of it, seemed to be fraught with ambiguity.
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