Shiva: to go or not to go

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 2:06 pm

People are individuals. Some need space. Some obviously don't. For myself, I found most of shiva a nightmare of people I didn't know well saying things that I found upsetting, touching me, just being in my face.

The only time among the 4x I sat shiva that it wasn't that way was when I was in Israel after the kvura for only a few hours, and only told my nearest and dearest that I was starting shiva there. So I had a shiva comprised of my daughter, my favorite nephews and niece, my cousins who I adore, and my rov and his wife, very dear friends. Every person there had known and loved the niftar, and loved me. No one felt the need to speak about the deeper meaning. I felt surrounded by support and comfort.

Maybe like so many of our practices that have gotten blown way out of proportion, keeping it small and warm was the original intent.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 3:40 pm

Ruchel wrote:

My friend has the thing that you had to call her sis before coming, and she said yes or no. Not everyone does open door at all.

That's a smart idea. Why don't we hear of it more often?

goodmorning

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 4:04 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Actually, contrary to popular belief, it’s not even about the aveilim, it’s a nechama for the benefit of the niftar.

It's for both. See Rambam Hilchos Aveilus 14:7:
יֵרָאֶה לִי שֶׁנֶּחָמַת אֲבֵלִים קוֹדֵם לְבִקּוּר חוֹלִים. שֶׁנִּחוּם אֲבֵלִים גְּמִילוּת חֶסֶד עִם הַחַיִּים וְעִם הַמֵּתִים:

dankbar

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 4:42 pm

In my community, if you are not really close friend or family you don't go to the meal, by a wedding but if you are still an acquaintance/friend that's not so super close you go to wedding to give your mazel tovs, to the bal simcha. If you get an invitation off a random list belonging a congregation of 500 people & you are not personally acquainted with bal simcha you skip it.

What happens is when chas vsholom there is a tragedy, everyone comes running as their rachmanos is awakened & the people involved sometimes feel like a nebech.

I know from my own experience, people that you are close with, you expect & want there. Stam random people you don't always appreciate.

Therefore, I think it is a good rule to go by....before you run to the shiva house...stop & think....would you run as fast to give your mazel tov wishes....had this person made a wedding tonight? If the answer is yes....by all means go ahead & give your condolonces too.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 8:20 pm

dankbar wrote:

I really think that is a smart basic guideline.

ImaLAEma

Tue, Jan 08 2019, 11:21 pm

dankbar wrote:

Rule of etiquette is if you would attend their simcha then you also go to shiva, if not then you don't go.

As someone who sat shiva twice I don't agree with this at all. There were plenty of people who knew my parents but didn't know me very well. I wouldn't have invited them to my simchas but I very much appreciated their coming and either having nice stories to tell us, or just giving us the feeling that people cared.

And please, if you can't/don't go for whatever reason, don't later give excuses for why you didn't show up if you bump into the aveil after shiva. Stupid excuses (and most of them are stupid) are more hurtful than your not going or calling/emailing/even texting in the first place.

Ruchel

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 4:01 am

amother wrote:

That's a smart idea. Why don't we hear of it more often?

Because in some countries you're just taking anyone in. In my country you have to know where it is and many people wouldn't just up and go and even my neighbour I didn't go before asking and I saw just another person there. Same in my mother's birth country (someone has said that "they don't do shiva" because of that Can't Believe It

)

imasoftov

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 4:49 am

dankbar wrote:

Rule of etiquette is if you would attend their simcha then you also go to shiva, if not then you don't go.

I've heard that in frummer circles people show up uninvited to weddings. In my MO world you go if you're invited (and hopefully after RSVPing). This would not be useful in my world.

amother

Jade

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 5:31 am

imasoftov wrote:

I've heard that in frummer circles people show up uninvited to weddings. In my MO world you go if you're invited (and hopefully after RSVPing). This would not be useful in my world.

Agreed. I like to keep my smachot small because it gets too out of hand otherwise, but if chas v'shalom I was sitting shiva, I would appreciate if my community would come show their support.

dankbar

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 10:38 am

We don't go uninvited. Typically any wedding being held has anywhere between 800_2000 invitations mailed out from both sides together. Only 100_500 portions get ordered. No rsvp. Everyone understands themselves....if you are close family or friend you come join the meal. If you are not that close you just pop in by the dancing to extend your mazel tov wishes. If you are not so acquainted & got an invitation off a random list you just throw the invitation into the garbage.
So rule by us, is a good indicator.....do you feel close enough to this family that you would extend your mazel tov wishes?
Or did one of the people who went together with you in school, in a diff grade, 20 yrs ago, lose a child now & you remember her being G.O. president, does that qualify for you to run to give your condolences now? No only if you are still really close with her today.

amother

Goldenrod

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 11:03 am

Quote:

does that qualify for you to run to give your condolences now? No only if you are still really close with her today.

Maybe this is a secular idea but we call it "paying respect." So if I respect either the avel or the niftar I will go for a brief Shiva call. It's not something you need to "qualify" for. I wouldn't go to satisfy some morbid curiosity--who does that? Going to Shiva means getting dressed and going out at night when I'd rather be in bed. It's not something I do for the fun of it.

OTOH I can hear that Shiva is stressful and not everyone wants to feel that they're on display or need to entertain people all day. So maybe that's a reason to pass on making a Shiva call if you're not very close.

ImaLAEma

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 11:23 am

imasoftov wrote:

I've heard that in frummer circles people show up uninvited to weddings. In my MO world you go if you're invited (and hopefully after RSVPing). This would not be useful in my world.

In my moderately yeshivish world, same thing. So I guess, like most things, this advice is useful if this is your community. If it's not your community, not so much.

I also keep my simchas small, but appreciated very much all those who were not so close with me who still showed me they thought about me for a second and cared. If you don't know the person so well, then don't stay for a long time, but it's still a mitzvah to go.

Like everything to do with shiva, however, it's easy to mess up because everyone is different and reacts to things differently, so unfortunately we can't point out any real rules. Best to go, take cues from aveil and don't stay too long unless you are close, either with the aveil or with the deceased person.

imasoftov

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 11:40 am

dankbar wrote:

When I get an invitation I don't need to figure out for myself if I should go for the meal, just the dancing, or throw it in the trash but different strokes for different folks, I guess.

dankbar

Wed, Jan 09 2019, 11:53 am

Imasoftov, I'm with you. It's definitely smarter system to know if you got invited, you belong there, that takes away the guesswork. Also when there's RSVP, the host knows how many portions to order, & takes away guesswork from host as well, instead of guesstimating how many guests will decided to show up for the meal. Sometimes too much waste, sometimes too little seating....

This is how things are done in my community though, too bad on me.

I did sent RSVP cards to my sons bar mitzvah...& pple thought I'm crazy....I was told nobody will return it because they're not used to this system