Proof of excellence in Yeshiva education, even Chassidish

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 4:09 pm

little neshamala wrote:

Its not about chassidish yeshivas vs non chassidish.

Its about yeshivas that offer secular ed vs those that dont. So the chassidish yeshivas that offer secular ed are lumped together with all the other secular ed yeshivas.

The problem exists solely among the non-secular education yeshivas. (Happens to be theyre all chassidish to my knowledge). And this boy, whether he graduated from a secular ed yeshiva, or not, is not proof that what theyre doing is okay. In either scenario. He would not be proof of anything.

I was just pointing out that this whole conversation is not relevant to OP's article. The guy in OP's article went to Ger, and they have just as good an education as a typical litvish yeshiva. So my point is that this is proof of nothing.

Not related to the conversation if some Chassidish yeshivos should change...

But now that we started the conversation.... let's call a spade a spade - the reason the Chassidish boys do so poorly in English is because this is their second language. In certain communities they are not even allowed to read ANY material - even The Midrash Says - in English. Even if they would have FIVE hours a day of secular studies a day, it would be very hard to overcome that issue.

My brother went to a Chassidish yeshiva and he can, today, walk into any college class on almost any subject and be comfortable teaching the course. Of course he's bright, but more important, he grew up with English books, English periodicals, and strong support for being secularly knowledgeable. That goes so much further than anything you can possibly learn in class.

amother

Scarlet

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 4:13 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

OPs conclusion is not relevant to OPs article.

amother

Copper

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 4:51 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

My brother went to a Chassidish yeshiva and he can, today, walk into any college class on almost any subject and be comfortable teaching the course. Of course he's bright, but more important, he grew up with English books, English periodicals, and strong support for being secularly knowledgeable. That goes so much further than anything you can possibly learn in class.

Off-topic, but I find this quote so interesting. I am a college professor. I have a PhD in my field and I still spend hours preparing for my courses. I can't even imagine how long it would take me (and how difficult I would find it) to prepare for courses in a completely different field.

I'm happy for your brother, though!

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 4:53 pm

amother wrote:

He reads a lot. And he's very, very bright. He might have to prepare for certain subjects, though...

When I took economics and finance courses I found he knew everything my professor had just said in class. He does work in that field, though.

Maya

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 5:40 pm

sima wrote:

what is actually happening now with the BOE and the curriculum overhaul, etc. I haven't heard anything about this anymore......

You don’t hear about it because the Agudah and yeshivahs and politicians involved slunk away with their tails between their legs. Because they intentionally made a stink that they knew was based on nothing and now they’re the fools whom no one can trust anymore.

Lol. The hysterics surrounding this issue is only proof of how guilty the yeshivahs are. You know, those expressions about how the more guilty one is, the bigger the fuss one makes...

amother

Salmon

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 5:49 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

SNIP

Not related to the conversation if some Chassidish yeshivos should change...

But now that we started the conversation.... let's call a spade a spade - the reason the Chassidish boys do so poorly in English is because this is their second language. In certain communities they are not even allowed to read ANY material - even The Midrash Says - in English. Even if they would have FIVE hours a day of secular studies a day, it would be very hard to overcome that issue.
....
.

Exactly.

Boys are not encouraged, or rather specifically discouraged, of exposing themselves to any English reading material.

Parents who are supportive of the secular studies, myself included, usually supplement on their own. Those boys usually end up with a basic knowledge of secular studies.

If the communities/schools as a whole deem secular education as "treif", implementing stricter regulations will only backfire. The rules will be considered some kind of "bad decree against the Jewish education". The little that was taught upto now will also be reduced.
Hope I'm being clear.
Anon for obvious reasons

keym

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 5:50 pm

Maya wrote:

My question is, people who take the rare cases and hold them up as “proof” that they are the norm, are they being intentionally deceitful or are they just that dense?

My question is do they do it for everything or just this.
I know a person who survived Ebola so its probably not dangerous.
And seatbelts are unnecessary.
And healthy food- who cares.
Etc. Etc. Etc.

Maya

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 5:54 pm

keym wrote:

My question is do they do it for everything or just this.
I know a person who survived Ebola so its probably not dangerous.
And seatbelts are unnecessary.
And healthy food- who cares.
Etc. Etc. Etc.

Good point.
My opinion is that those who are in positions of authority, in this case the rabbis and politicians who are vocal about this, are being deliberately deceitful. And the followers are people with little critical thinking skills who likely do this with everything.

And it’s the children who are the ones ultimately suffering. As usual.

keym

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 5:55 pm

To clarify, I am not taking a stand at all on education.
I object to all these "proofs of success" that get thrown around because of the few very successful.

I object equally Chassidish, Yeshivish, and MO. I was raised in Yeshivish circles with proofs of families who the husband learned forever, and the mother worked PT, but the money just landed in their lap. I reject this 1 in a million story the same way I reject the 1 man who scores crazy high without education. They prove nothing for the masses.

mommy3b2c

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 6:00 pm

Maya wrote:

My husband was saying that all along. He kept saying that the whole outcry was based on nothing. Half of the things they were threatening would happen were made up.

Maya

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 6:04 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

My husband was saying that all along. He kept saying that the whole outcry was based on nothing. Half of the things they were threatening would happen were made up.

Your husband was right.
It was an unfortunate case of religion crossing over into politics, where people in position of power are free to say anything they please and whip the already hysterical masses into an event bigger frenzy. It’s a total disgrace, and we expect better from our rabbis.

nylon

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 6:14 pm

The state clarified that the requirements are over 2 years, not one, and that it's "or equivalent" which will bring down the total a bit more.

Moster was always about the subset of chassidishe schools that teach limited or no English. His opponents (and occasionally secular journalists who think everything from a Satmar cheder to Ramaz is the same) turned it into "he hates all the yeshivot." Then people tried to muddy the waters by not comparing like with like. All the high scoring schools they boasted about were not chassidishe boys' schools. You can't brag about Regents scores for schools that don't give them. Also, it's dishonest to compare yeshivos with NYC DOE. If yeshivos had to deal with what they had to (or if most public school kids came from supportive homes) you'd see a different result.

It's great that some people still do well. But would we say it's ok to teach Torah badly because talented students will still do well? I don't think so.

amother

Orange

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 6:23 pm

I want to address the higher test scores in yeshivahs versus public schools.

1. Yessivahs cheat. I know for a fact some Yeshivahs cheat. I taught in 3 different schools and was an administrator. All cheated. The kids may not even be aware. Perhaps some public schools also cheat.

2. If you compare similar populations in the public schools with similar populations in Yeshivahs, I believe the public schools do a better job. They have more skilled teachers and better tools.

Public schools take a wider variety of disadvantaged students. It isn't a fair comparison to be comparing students from two parent stable white religious families to whatever students whose parents may be drug addicts or the students themselves have substance abuse issues. The moms might be turning tricks in one population. Yeshivahs don't have guns and gangs on school premises. Geographic comparisons hardly tell the whole story.

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 6:52 pm

Maya wrote:

So you're accusing Rabbi Reisman and Rabbi Brudny of being deliberately deceitful? Do you even know who they are?

And for those that say that they knew all along, did you really read the whole thing and realize on your own that the hours were meant to be spread out over two years, not one year? Is there a record of you saying that?

Mommyg8

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 6:57 pm

amother wrote:

The girls schools have high scores. Not the Chassidish boys schools. In the school that I went to we absolutely did not cheat. And we all did very well.

Yeshivos take in everyone as well - I'm not sure how you figured out that only public schools take in everyone.

And I think that's exactly the point. The moms who are not on drugs, are not turning tricks, the intact families - how did that come about? They are products of that very same school system that you claim does such a poor job. Which is the point many are making.