Is a person to be blamed for being in poverty?

ShishKabob

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 1:34 pm

Fox wrote:

ITA. Perhaps a question is why segments of the Jewish community resist assisting those families who are willing to undertake the work and and responsibility of bringing more Jewish neshamas into the world.

Because in Yiddish "azoi vee si kristalt zich, azoi yiddilt zich"
I think it helps that secular opinions and influences are slowly seeping into our spaces. Whether, physically, emotionally and definitely spiritually.

amother

Tangerine

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 1:45 pm

Fox wrote:

I don’t support that hashkafa so why would I assist it?

amother

Violet

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 2:08 pm

Fox wrote:

Many don't value that, at least not as much as they value perceived Kiddush Hashem and responsibility. It is not clear to me if they are worried more about "what will the non-Jews say" or it is honestly a Jewish value.

I hear that, although one value I have for myself is respecting others' values, as long as they do not contradict Torah. So I will defend the rights of long-term Kollelniks, the rights of Chassidim who do not want to learn any English, the rights of those who feel Aliyah is incumbent on all of us, and even the rights of those who feel that living without tzedakah or government funding justifies limiting family size.

Although I B"H have a large family and not enough income to support them without help.

saw50st8

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 2:12 pm

Fox wrote:

Many of us are happy to help out, but not with a financial handout. If you teach a man to fish....

amother

Salmon

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 3:27 pm

I'm curious those posters who think others should assist people who want to have more children then they can afford, are you personally writing out checks to such people or are you such people and you think others should be happy to help you?

disclaimer: I actually assisted my brother in kollel with his his kids tuitions for a few years so I actually have "written out a check" but I just feel like sometimes it's easier to be saying what "other" people should be doing especially when it comes to their money. Like of course the wealthy people should be paying more taxes in America, why is it relevant that I'm not wealthy?

amother

Violet

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 5:14 pm

amother wrote:

The expression "people who want to have more children than they can afford" is very judgmental in and of itself.

Some people rely on Torah authorities that Hashem gave us a Mitzvah of Pru U'rvu, and did not specify any preconditions such as minimum bank balance or size home; while granting leniencies for physical or emotional barriers. The same way I eat kosher even if I can't afford it, don't work on Shabbos or Yom Tov even though I need the money, and buy Mezuzos even though they are too expensive, I do what Hashem wants and have children. No bracha comes from me working on Shabbos, or from not having more children based on financial concerns.

amother

Silver

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 5:21 pm

amother wrote:

That's great, but it should not be accompanied with disdain for those not willing to help subsidize this hashkafa.

amother

Violet

Thu, Jan 10 2019, 5:35 pm

amother wrote:

That's great, but it should not be accompanied with disdain for those not willing to help subsidize this hashkafa.

I apologize, did anything I say imply that I think I am superior to those who follow a different hashkafa?

ectomorph

Tue, Jan 15 2019, 10:16 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you great post. Deleted part of it ny mistake.

Im always thrilled to see large families. The more jews the better. And bh im on the giving side most of the time.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 3:45 pm

If someone goes into debt for non-necessities (such as chicken or meat for dinner every nite as opposed to just for Shabbos [the list can go on and on, I mention this example as it was brought up on another thread today], then yes, they can be blamed if they are unable to get themselves out of this debt.

meyerlemon44

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 4:26 pm

Fox wrote:

Just out of curiosity, what hashkafa do you adhere to that doesn't prioritize bringing Jewish children into the world?

I’m not the poster you were addressing, but I would say I adhere to the hashkafah that prioritizes quality rather than quantity in terms of parenting. I would rather see children who have the best education, are clothed and fed well, who don’t see their parents stressed over finances, don’t see their mom’s emotional and physical health suffering due to constant pregnancy.

I once met a girl who was one of 13 and told me this about her relationship with her parents: “We know they love us, but they don’t know us.” Her parents were very wealthy and probably gave her the best upbringing someone could get in a double digit family, but there just wasn’t enough time or energy to meet the kids’ emotional needs.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 4:32 pm

meyerlemon44 wrote:

Do not judge all large families by the one u know.
I’m an only child from a wealthy family and my parents had/have nothing to do with me. They are simply not interested. How do u explain that?

southernbubby

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 5:34 pm

When I read in the news about anti-Semitic groups such as Rise Up Ocean County, something tells me that they don't view us as a bargain simply because we usually manage to stay out of jail. They see us as quite costly and dangerous to the environment. And they enjoy hating us.

amother

Copper

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 5:37 pm

southernbubby wrote:

German Jews did everything "right." It didn't help.
עשו שונא את יעקב.

southernbubby

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 5:45 pm

amother wrote:

Most of the time it's not a fault. It's bad mazel.

It is usually not the fault of the person unless he uses illegal drugs or gambles but as a society we have ramped up communal standards to an impossible level. My great grandparents were frum but had to do without much of what is required today. The Torah does not require us to live beyond our means. That's our community culture. We are more successful at raising frum children than my great grandparents were but at present, a generous government gets a lot of the credit.

SixOfWands

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 5:55 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I haven't read the thread, but even drug addiction is not always a personal fault. A lot of people get addicted to prescription meds, and from there move to street drugs to meet their physical addiction.