Are you a high school public school teacher?

amother

Ivory

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 8:29 pm

yes it's definitely not easy to get tenure. I work in NJ and until I was tenured there were all of these things that were "optional" volunteer things like extra meetings and committees, running clubs for no pay, chaperoning school events, etc. that we did to get on the principal's good side--they didn't really feel optional at the time. I will point out that I (and many other tenured teachers) still do these things often because we care about our students and it makes our school better, but there was definitely a power imbalance where we felt that if we didn't do everything, it would hurt us in our evaluations. Nothing that could be proven-- maybe you'd lose points for something in your next observation or be graded more harshly on something he would let slide for someone else.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 9:08 pm

First of all, you are NOT too old! There are many midcareer professionals who switch to teaching as a second career.

That being said, when I was getting my Master's degree, I knew I wanted to teach. I was debating between getting the MEd and NY certification or a Masters in a subject area that I could teach at the college level. I had subbed in a public school system and was hired a lot because I was willing to sub middle school classes. Smile

However, my experience cemented the fact that I prefer teaching adults so I opted for the second choice.

My DD and her DH are both teachers in the public schools. They originally taught in religious schools but the benefits/salary are much better in public school systems. DD teaches 8th grade and her hubby teaches high school (different subjects). There are some problems that have arisen which they did not encounter at religious schools but there were issues in the religious schools that are irrelevant in public schools.

amother

Blonde

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 9:52 pm

I am a school counselor in a public high school not in NY/NJ. Everything you’re hearing about people’s experiences will be different depending on their state, county, and specific school and admin which can change from year to year. (My county specifically moves assistant principals to other schools every few years.)

Regarding placements, the way my county works is after you apply if you’re lucky you get a screening interview with someone in central office. If you do well enough they pass along your name to any principals who have an opening in their school and the principals will call you if they are interested in interviewing you and you can decide if you’d like to interview with them. You might end up with multiple interviews at different schools and if you’re really lucky multiple job opportunities/placements within the same school system which means you would get to decide (if more than 1 school wants you) where you want to work.

Regarding tenure-in my county you get it very easily as long as your decent at your job after 3 years. Bh I did get it after 3 years (just like the teachers who started at the same time as me) and we didn’t have to do anything above or beyond our job with after school activities and community things that other people are talking about. I’m surprised to hear that that should have anything to do with tenure!

No matter what population you work with you will definitely be teaching students who have serious trauma and crazy things happening in their lives. I work at middle to upper class school where many of my students have fancier cars than me yet their lives are crazy. Suicide attempts and ideation are commonplace and unfortunately we had a student who successfully took his own life. I’ve come to learn that even the kids who look like they have it all-looks, brains, money, great family-really don’t have great lives at all and if anyone really knew what they experienced they would not want to trade places with them. I could write novels upon novels of what these kids go through. Very often this negatively effects their concentration and performance in school. However there are many students who despite what they go through love learning and excel in school. Pretty much no matter where you teach you’ll have students of all types but some may have one of more type. (For example I would not feel comfortable working in an inner city school even though some of my students have moved from the inner city to my school and I’m happy to work with them.)

All in all I love my job for the most part. I have a great relationship with administration and never feel like they are out to get me. We work together as a team. I love what I do as I really feel like I’m making a difference in kids’ lives. Obviously things can get stressful at times but that’s the case at any job. And the salary and benefits just don’t compare to frum schools.

I don’t know if that was helpful but I wanted to point out that things don’t work the same way in every school and public school system/county.

groisamomma

Mon, Feb 04 2019, 11:55 pm

smileforamile wrote:

TONS. I know some teachers say that they don't take work home, but that probably means they're in school until 7pm every night- or they've been teaching the same subject for 15 years and haven't bothered to update.

Okay, I'm totally taking offense at that last line Very Happy

. I'm one of the most innovative teachers in my school and rarely, if ever, bring home work! Yes, math for 15 years means I know the content well enough that all I have to do is change my plans to align with whatever modality is considered best practice for that year. OP, normal public schools (and by that I don't mean NYC!) give their teachers plenty of prep time. It's built into the schedule of every teacher. For the first 2 years you scramble to make it, so yes you may have to use your lunchtime to prepare as well. With 1 lunch period and 2 prep periods per day, a math teacher does NOT need to be bringing home hours of work!! Except for the few times I had parent meetings that ate up my prep times, in which case I did lesson plans at home. They take 1/2 hr to an hour at most. I suspect NYC either doesn't give their teachers enough prep time, or doesn't have PLC time built into their schedules (all math teachers meet several times a week to do lesson plans and share resources, assessments, etc.) because it really sounds from imamother that every teacher in NYC is operating like a one-man band! Of course people there are burned out and disgusted with the system!

Smileforamile, again you're scaring OP with stories that can only happen in NYC! I can't see any administrator in any school except inner-city ones get away with perpetuating the horrors you speak of. You teach in an off-the-wall population, with seriously deranged supervisors, and you're writing things about tenure I've NEVER heard of in my life. Seriously, it doesn't even sound legal. I'm incredulous! Yes, often the "blah" teachers get riffed when they're cutting down, but any teacher that's with the program and meeting expectations has a legal RIGHT to tenure at 4 years. I'vs never heard it work the way you're describing.

Just throwing this out there, OP: If you're teaching high school in such a district, you might as well teach middle. Smileforamile said (I think it was you) that they're just middle schoolers in disguise. Just saying that classroom management will be a much smaller issue if you start out with middle school at least until you have the system down pat. You can always move up to high school later...and maybe even teach your own grown-up middle school kids Very Happy

.

Another thing: The amother guidance counselor above raised many good points about the home lives of even the middle and upper class kids. I can probably add several chapters to her novel about the stories these kids have. However, and this is a big one, she writes that she has full admin support and they work with her. Please realize that she is in a totally different position than a teacher with regards to administration. They need her. To the extent where it can come back to bite an admin if they drop the ball with any student. So while my principals and admins have always had o it r backs, and support the teachers, it's not like that all over. She's coming from a totally different angle as a counselor and not as a teacher.

Hope any of this made sense. 'Tis the hour for me (where's the yawn emoji?!)...

amother

Pumpkin

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 7:53 am

groisamomma wrote:

Okay, I'm totally taking offense at that last line Very Happy

I really appreciate getting all these different perspectives! (And now you're really making me wish I lived out of town!) I had no idea that prep time is built into the school day.

The thing is, I would be in NY, but I was wondering if it would be possible to go out to Long Island, where maybe the schools are better. But now, thanks to you ladies, at least I'll know what to look for.

One more question. Is the school day from 8-4? How does it work with early Fridays in the winter?

amother

Blonde

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 9:12 am

groisamomma wrote:

Okay, I'm totally taking offense at that last line Very Happy

While I understand that being a school counselor is very different than a teacher, I think you would find that most teachers in my school would also agree that they have a good relationship with administration (as long as they aren’t a terrible teacher.) Also although my job is quite different in nature, I am on the same salary scale as teachers and am subject to the same rules with observations and evaluations etc.

Regarding school hours-it will definitely vary depending where you are. In my county they stagger buses based on grade level so all high schools start and end earliest and then middle school and then elementary school. My work hours are before 7 am (I try to be there 6:45 I’ve even had meetings at 6:45!) until 2:20 kids get out at 2:00. This would be true of any high school in my county. As another poster said some counties stagger each school so there is a lot of variance from high school to high school.

nicole81

Wed, May 22 2019, 11:08 pm

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

I can't believe I missed this thread! I just opened my computer and this tab was one of many open so I guess my toddler was banging around on it earlier today Very Happy

But I'm glad she found this thread.

OP, I don't know if you have decided to go ahead with a career change or not, but if you are still interested, feel free to ask or PM me with any questions. I'm a NYCDOE High School Assistant Principal (was even a principal last semester Hug

) I taught math for a number of years beforehand, and I've been an administrator for about 5 years. I also came through the fellows program originally, so if you were looking into that as a career changer, I have some insight there.

Just regarding the quoted post, aside for PD days or in schools with special schedules, the standard work day is 6h20m. And even with the schools that vote on a different schedule, I really don't know anyone who extends their Friday time. It's rare. So for example, my school goes from about 8:15-2:35pm on standard days, and until about 4 on our 2 PD/extended days. I think you're pretty safe getting out on time on Fridays. Administrators are also supposed to reasonably accommodate you if possible. For example, I had a frum teacher a few years ago who lived in NJ (we're in Brooklyn) so we let 8th period be her prep, and she left after 7th on Fridays. But an accommodation is meant to be the commute time plus 30 min, so you will still be rushing.

Getting into Long Island schools can be very difficult. In the top districts you have to sub for years and then pray they like you enough. Salary and benefits also vary by district, as do religious accommodations. I'd totally recommend staying with the city schools, especially with such a strong teacher's union. It definitely gets easier. And honestly the #1 key to success with a high needs inner city population is really just to love and care about them. When they see that you truly care, they will respect you. Positive relationships is the most important factor in teaching, at least in my opinion. There's a wealth of research that shows that the academic achievement of students of color is correlated to whether or not they think their teacher likes them, and I see evidence of this daily.

Anyway, I could go on all night about teaching and education but I have some shabbat prep to do. Like I said, if this is something you're still looking into, feel free to reach out.

amother

Gold

Wed, May 22 2019, 11:56 pm

nicole81 wrote:

Just regarding the quoted post, aside for PD days or in schools with special schedules, the standard work day is 6h20m. And even with the schools that vote on a different schedule, I really don't know anyone who extends their Friday time. It's rare. So for example, my school goes from about 8:15-2:35pm on standard days, and until about 4 on our 2 PD/extended days. I think you're pretty safe getting out on time on Fridays. Administrators are also supposed to reasonably accommodate you if possible. For example, I had a frum teacher a few years ago who lived in NJ (we're in Brooklyn) so we let 8th period be her prep, and she left after 7th on Fridays. But an accommodation is meant to be the commute time plus 30 min, so you will still be rushing.

My schedule is 8:20-3:11 every day. On Fridays in the winter, I literally get home 20 minutes before Shabbos. I didn't want to ask for any favors, though... (and thank G-d I didn't, since my admin has been harassing me enough without that).

Your experience with asking for help will depend on the school. If you have an understanding administrator, you won't have a problem. But if you have an abusive one (I've dealt with one abusive one and another who's not that far, but is still very full of his own power), you might have a hard time. Oh, they'll be very polite about it when you ask, but it'll come back to bite you later.

In general, your ps experience will largely depend on your administration. Have a good principal and AP, and you'll have a better experience even with a tougher population. With a bad principal and/or AP, your life can become very difficutl.

Last edited by amother on Mon, Jul 08 2019, 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Blonde

Thu, May 23 2019, 4:32 pm

nicole81 wrote:

I can't believe I missed this thread! I just opened my computer and this tab was one of many open so I guess my toddler was banging around on it earlier today Very Happy

That’s really cool that you’re an AP in a public HE. I’m curious how that works for you being frum. I’m my school the AP’s have to take turns supervising after school events like games which often occur Friday night. They also all have to be there during the homecoming dance and prom which are (partially) on shabbos. Do you have any conflicts like that where they expect you to be somewhere you can’t because of shabbos or YT?

nicole81

Fri, May 24 2019, 12:05 am

amother [ Blonde ] wrote:

No, BH. I let the principal know my restrictions after I was hired, and offered to pick up any late shifts during the week whenever needed. She respected that and never expected me anywhere on Shabbat. She also lets me comp later hours on some days for an earlier Friday in the winter. When I covered for her as Principal last semester, the superintendent gave me the same courtesy.

We always hold prom on a Thursday night (we do it on Anniversary day so our kids can spend all day getting ready, otherwise they would ditch school Can't Believe It

). My principal used to have no issue coming in and supervising Saturdays, but now she can't so easily, so we have switched to mostly Thursday evening events. And the other AP picks up the rare Saturday here or there. My principal has to leave by 3 or 4 every day, and the other AP needs to leave by 4:15, so it works for us. I work until 5 or 5:30 and cover after school activities, and tonight when we had an event, I was there until 8. Since I'm always willing to pick up the weeknight coverage, there's no hard feelings that I don't do weekends.

Regarding sports, I work on a campus with 3 other schools, but my kids represent only about 10% of the athletes (we are a theater/artsy school) so we are rarely responsible for supervising PSAL. And some of the coaches themselves are designated as after school/weekend supervisors. We rotate building coverage for the week, and a different school BH had no issue covering Friday evenings.

Really, the biggest issue with events has been when the kids ask me if I'm coming to see them perform, and I know it's disappointing telling them I can't. But I'm very up front about my religious observance with them, too, and even though they don't understand it, they respect it as well. And like I said, we've moved over to more Thursday events, so I even try to bring my whole family to a performance every year, which my students love.

Maybe I've been lucky, I don't know. But honestly it hasn't been a challenge. The hardest part was telling my boss in the very beginning (followed by telling her I was going to need to take off 4 days for sukkot soon thereafter!) but once the cat was out of the bag, it was no big deal.