Does tznious depend on how pretty you are?

Ruchel

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 7:22 am

Then the problem is the husband.
Let him practice his mitzvah, right?
As for her, she shouldn't try to get attention. If she gets it because G-d decided of her body, so be it

etky

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 8:10 am

zaq wrote:

Obviously not, otherwise unattractive people would be allowed to go naked.

The Torah is preoccupied with the need to cover up that which is 'ervah'.
Ervah is something that, when uncovered, is somehow indecent or inappropriate and provokes a visceral reaction.
Usually this reaction is s-xual and thus the laws of the 'arayot'.
Sometimes though the reaction is disgust - as when a man divorces a woman due to an ervah that he found in her after marriage or the commandment והיה מחניך קודש ולא יראה בך ערוות דבר".
Unattractive or old peoples' nakedness would thus still fall under this category of ervah - it may not be attractive but it is 'indecent' and needs to be covered.
That said, Fox's theory of ageless, subjective attractiveness is definitely more appealing Smile

nechamashifra

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 1:25 pm

amother wrote:

There is if it makes other people’s DH’s lust after you and potentially incite jealousy in their wives. Some women seem to need this validation of being “the most beautiful” in the room. This to me is NOT Tznius at all, even if their skirt goes down to the floor...

If you actually believe that men are that shallow, then only the most beautiful women in every room would be married.
Also, if you think men don't have any more depth than that, why marry them?

marina

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 1:27 pm

amother wrote:

Actually YES! I definitely prioritize LH over Tznius. And I have an older teen DD who I have never heard say LH unlike some of her peers. Their skirts are longer than hers but I am so proud of what doesn’t come out of her mouth. I stopped telling her off about skirt length when I realised how good she was with not doing LH.

What's bizarre to me is the lashon-hara taanis that many frum girls and women take on themselves. It's like Really now? You think you're some kind of amazing person because you don't gossip between 6-7 pm every evening? The people are so sincere about it too, it's the weirdest thing.

ShishKabob

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 1:34 pm

marina wrote:

It's definitely a good place to start becoming an amazing person. I don't have a problem with girls/women feeling good about themselves when they do the right thing. It's not all or nothing. Tiny baby steps or whatever steps to self improvement is always something in the right direction.
Is beating ourselves up and thinking about how bad and unworthy we are any better?
I think self complimenting is good for our self image and spurs us onto better things.

marina

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 1:44 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

Ok. To me this is as bizarre as someone who is like " I don't flirt with guys from noon- one pm on weekdays. YAY me!"

Laiya

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 1:53 pm

marina wrote:

Ok, can you please clarify. They don't speak LH during the hour, or they don't speak, period?

ShishKabob

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 2:03 pm

marina wrote:

Ok. To me this is as bizarre as someone who is like " I don't flirt with guys from noon- one pm on weekdays. YAY me!"

I guess this is how you take it. Not everyone takes that message.

amother

Cerise

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 2:17 pm

amother wrote:

Why do you need to prioritize one over the other. They're not mutually exclusive. You can try to excel in both.
You should be proud that she doesn't speak loshon hora, and if you're OK with her skirts, great.
Maybe you're expecting people with longer skits to speak less LH? That's an assumption we have no stats on, and would likely be false if we did take stats.

farm

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 2:22 pm

marina wrote:

Ok. To me this is as bizarre as someone who is like " I don't flirt with guys from noon- one pm on weekdays. YAY me!"

Well if you are starting from a baseline of flirting all day, that would be an achievement. Maintaining mindfulness and actively holding yourself back from flirting (or speaking LH) for a specific amount of time is definitely an achievement and as you train yourself to maintain that control for longer and longer periods of time, you will hopefully eventually be able to maintain the positive behavior all the time. I think each small step along the way is noteworthy and wonderful.

amother

Purple

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 4:20 pm

amother wrote:

Yes, ideally we all excel at everything and all our DCs are perfect little angels living a devout Torah lifestyle 24/7. Meanwhile, back in the real world, yes, my DD doesn’t wear long skirts but I have never heard her utter LH. I’ll take it! I am very proud of her and now I don’t care about her skirts. She’s FFB as well as legally and halachically an adult and knows the rules. The only time I butt in a bit is if eg we are going to a Shul event.

I am a BT so yes, initially I was surprised at the venom I heard spouted from some Tznius-looking women: I had looked up to them before I became frum so it was a hard wake-up call when I saw how much gossip there is in our community.

happinessseeker

Tue, Feb 05 2019, 4:55 pm

marina wrote:

Why must it be all or nothing? It’s so much healthier not to live like that. Do good deeds only mean something if you are otherwise perfect? Does perfection exist? I think that’s a great way to work on your awareness of your tendency to gossip. Generally people who do a Shmiras halashon “hour” do a lot more than one hour once they start thinking before they speak.

Yes, I enthusiastically participate in Shmiras Halashon hours 😊