Poverty doesn't have to equal neglect, s/o micdrop

amother

Apricot

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 4:45 pm

Of course the two don't necessarily go hand in hand. What I will say is that some parents have issues that lead to both- poverty and neglect. Then there are parents who are poor because that's what Hashem decreed, despite their efforts. No reason they would be neglectful. And there are parents who are neglectful because of their own issues, without being poor.

amother

Floralwhite

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 5:47 pm

I'm really trying to understand, but what does it mean your DH hates dairy? No one said eat dairy. Open a can or two of salmon and make patties. Not liking dairy does not mean you need to eat chicken. And frankly if your kids need chicken (and no child needs chicken every nite) it doesn't mean you and your DH do. There are plenty of good, nutritious pareve meals out there.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 5:53 pm

bronze- do you end up getting the money to pay the credit card or are you just in a lot of debt?

amother

Green

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 6:40 pm

amother wrote:

A lot of frum people seem to be ignorant of cooking without meat, fish or cheese. Even a dairy supper seems to be a stretch for many frum men and seemingly doesn't fill them up. One of my kosher cookbooks even has a section of pareve/dairy meals with the suggestion that these are great options for the 9 days. (because presumably no frum people eat pareve or dairy food any other time of year.)

ectomorph

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 6:42 pm

I used to be very judgmental of people who ate fleishig every night.

Now 2 of my kids are allergic to dairy, 1 is allergic to nuts, 1 is possibly celiac and my husband won't eat peas or beans except in canned baked beans.... Im a lot less judgmental now.

amother

Green

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 6:47 pm

ectomorph wrote:

I hear you. Allergies are a legitimate reason to eat meat. I am on a diet so I also used to eat a lot of fish and chicken. I am doing WW and I was thrilled when they recently changed their plan so that lentils, beans, peas etc are now all zero points. I now eat a lot more of them. Red meat has points so I eat less of that. I rarely eat cheese. But I don't deprive my pizza and pasta loving kids - I make pizza for the kids and salmon for me. (I offer my kids the same choice they almost always choose the pizza)

southernbubby

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 6:58 pm

ectomorph wrote:

I am judgemental of those who don't eat chicken or meat. People who do hard physical work may need meat. In the 9 days people make siyums so that pregnant women, post partum women, sick people, etc. can eat meat. Chicken soup is very healthy. Growing children need good nutrition.
To save money, you can stretch meat and chicken but everyone needs proper nutrition.

amother

Honeydew

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 7:07 pm

So what you are all hinting to is that you have a lot of credit card debt?

amother

Seafoam

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 7:09 pm

amother wrote:

Canned salmon where I live is just as cheap/expensive as chicken. We eat only bishul yisroel canned salmon & tuna & it ain’t cheap. Chicken OTOH often goes on sale here. Cheese is actually also pretty expensive here. Our cheap (parts of) dinners are pasta/pizza/rice/bread or rolls/eggs -aside for eggs they’re not very healthy, and don’t work for many ppl.

My husband actually can’t have dairy due to severe sensitivity to it, and hates beans. Sensitive to gluten too His protein is a variety of chicken/fish/eggs.
Many ppl don’t do well with dairy /gluten.

I also don’t think it’s fair to judge! She said she shops in thrift shops, and is really careful. Let her have her chicken if that’s what works for her family! Everyone has diff things they take into account when budgeting for their family.

amother

Apricot

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 7:11 pm

Maybe everyone should just stop being judgemental altogether and realize that different people have different needs What

ectomorph

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 7:59 pm

southernbubby wrote:

Agreed.

Also chicken is 1.99 a lb in N.Y. where I try to buy it. Not bad compared to other forms of protein. We also eat eggs which is also cheap protein but you get tired of eggs quicker than u get tired of chicken.

Im not complaining just explaining why a lot of families end up with fleishigs.

You have one kid who doesnt tolerate dairy etc and its difficult and wasteful to make multiple dinners. Everyone eats chicken.

crust

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 8:19 pm

Let's first establish that I really liked that speech. It's the only one I listened to and I felt she's being nice non bashing. I like her attitude and I think she's amazing.

amother pink wrote:

Is it neglect to not have enough chicken for 40 people when you are expecting 10?

No. It's not neglect if it happens once.
It is neglect if, you don't have the means and you still allow this to happen every single week.
It is neglect to invite 10 guests if you don't have food for your own kids. Chayachu kodmin.

It is neglect to do Mitzvas on the cheshbon of your kids.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to not be able to afford overnight camp?

No. It is neglect to not care enough to not do anything about it.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to buy clothing on sale or from the thrift store?

No.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to not have enough bedrooms for each child to have his/her own room?

No.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to allow a child to make a closet into a bedroom so they can have a private space?

No.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to not be able to afford an out-of-town high school?

No.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to allow a motivated child to earn money to do just that?

No.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to trust your independent child when they say they arranged a place to stay?

Yes. It is. Which parent in their right mind allows a child to find a place to live? Why would you even WANT to leave a child to her own devices?

amother wrote:

Is it neglect not to send spending money to that child when they never asked for it and demonstrated an ability to earn their own pocket change?

No. It's neglect to not have that connection with your child and understand intutively that hello for the love of god this kid is a kid and she needs money to survive.
It's very convenient to 'Let' a child go to another state and leave her to her own devices. Nothing heroic about it.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to not check your 9th grader's suitcase and ensure they aren't missing any toiletries?

No. It's neglect to not be aware that she doesn't own these toiletreis in the first place.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to trust your child when they say they're doing great and love school and are living by their friend's house and got clothes from an amazing gemach?

This is very simplistic. They have been apathetic and uninvolved for 14 years so I cant say it can be expected from them to think (or care) if she's happy but no normal parent would be so laid back and think that everything is nice and dandy.

On that note...

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to run out of fruits or vegetables?

No.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to save certain foods for Shabbos?

No.

amother wrote:

Is it neglect to wear hand-me-down underwear?

It depends from whom it comes and how its presented to the teenager. There's such a thing called kvod habrius.

amother wrote:

Why don't we define actual neglect before deciding whether or not poverty plays a role in it?

This. I don't think its the poverty here that was the game changer. Its the lack of emotional and physical involvement and the um, yes. THE NEGLECT.

Mommyg8

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 10:24 pm

amother wrote:

Maybe there are some men out there who get filled up without meat or chicken, but none of them are related to me Laugh

amother

Honeydew

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 10:33 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Maybe there are some men out there who get filled up without meat or chicken, but none of them are related to me Laugh

My dh prefers dairy. His brother, father, and my father and brother all are happy with dairy meals. A lot of frum people have a fleishig fixation, maybe because the gemara praises bassar.

Mommyg8

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 10:38 pm

amother wrote:

My dh prefers dairy. His brother, father, and my father and brother all are happy with dairy meals. A lot of frum people have a fleishig fixation, maybe because the gemara praises bassar.

I said "related to ME". Unless you are my sister, your brother, father and dh are not related to me.

Nothing to do with the gemarah - non-Jewish men are even more fixated with "fleishig".

And just wondering - was it your dh I saw on line at the kosher fleishige takeout? Because I always see an awful lot of men there... I always wondered why they're there alone....

Mommyg8

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 10:43 pm

amother wrote:

It's not healthy to eat fish every night...

Besides, I think chicken is cheap enough that you're not going to save much by eating canned salmon or tuna - we only eat the heimish brands, as do many people here, and it's more expensive than national brands.

I once added up my costs for a tuna supper - I found that I saved at most a dollar or two, nothing really to write home about. You'll save more money by eliminating unhealthy snacks and other prepared food.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 10:45 pm

Not op but my husband doesn’t eat fish. Dairy. Salads or soups. We have meat or chicken every night.

amother

Honeydew

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 11:11 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

It was certainly not him but thanks for asking. I’ve seen many posters like yourself here insisting that only fleishigs will do and it seems like there is a strong cultural component to the fleishig fixation.

amother

Pink

Thu, Feb 14 2019, 11:27 pm

crust wrote:

It is neglect if, you don't have the means and you still allow this to happen every single week.
It is neglect to invite 10 guests if you don't have food for your own kids. Chayachu kodmin.

In that case, her situation was NOT neglect. Because it certainly did not happen every week, and only when there were 40 (instead of 10) was there an issue of not enough chicken. Presumably there was also some of the "older child I must be responsible" feeling here; I didn't get the impression that her MOTHER told her not to take chicken.

(Incidentally, I didn't feel that that anecdote belonged in her speech as it wasn't a consequence of poverty - I doubt ANY of us could successfully accommodate 30 unexpected guests. It seemed more to demonstrate her sense of responsibility for the family, that she was aware that money was tight and didn't want to be a burden on her parents.)

crust wrote:

No. It is neglect to not care enough to not do anything about it.

(Referring to overnight camp) What? Really? It's neglect not to "care enough" to "do anything about" sending your child to overnight camp, at a minimum of $1-2,000 per session?!?

crust wrote:

Intuitively, if a child earned her own money to pay for the bus fare, and you offer her money and she blithely (possibly trying to protect her parents) reassures you that she has money from babysitting, you should know not to believe her??? Do you regularly distrust your own children? Are your children also independent and resourceful, who have long earned your trust?

crust wrote:

No. It's neglect to not be aware that she doesn't own these toiletreis in the first place.

In many homes, like mine, toiletry items like hairbrushes and bottles of shampoo are shared by the family, not the property of an individual child. If you then hand your daughter $150 (let's say) and tell her to buy whatever she needs for high school, and she lets you know that she did, do you tell her that you are going to paw through her suitcase to be sure that that is indeed the case?

I don't even check my 3rd grader's bag when she goes on a Shabbaton. I may ask about few things she might have forgotten, but I figure that she will let me know if she is missing anything major, will borrow or otherwise figure things out, and will learn to be more careful when packing in the future.

Sending a child to Crown Heights is not sending them to a third-world country, where not bringing a hairbrush means never having one. This girl prioritized extra-curricular activities over buying a hairbrush (she passed multiple stores selling brushes on her way to school, and had spending money that she used for class trips), and for some reason never asked her mother for one.

Have you ever sent a child away from home? I don't think you understand how much you end up relying on third-hand information, and only finding out the real story years later. This even with sending the child to a known place, paying for boarding, and providing spending money.

crust wrote:

This is very simplistic. They have been apathetic and uninvolved for 14 years so cant say it can be expected from them to think (or care) if she's happy but no normal parent would be so laid back and think that everything is nice and dandy.

This is extremely callous of you to say. Why do you think her parents were apathetic and uninvolved? If her parents are quieter, go-with-the-flow types, they may have been bemused and amazed at their go-getter outgoing macher daughter, who demonstrated time and time again her ingenuity and persistence. Why wouldn't they think that things are fine IF THEIR DAUGHTER TOLD THEM IT WAS??? They can't be caring parents unless they personally visit to investigate that their daughter is telling them the truth?

Let's imagine how the conversation might have gone at the beginning of the year:

"So you are going to be staying at Rivky's, right?"
"Yes."
"I'm going to speak to her parents and thank them - that's a big responsibility they are taking on themselves."

"Hi, Mrs. Almoni?"
"Yes?"
"This is Chava's mom. Thank you so much for agreeing to host her!" [thinking they are hosting the whole year]
[thinking they are hosting a week] "Oh, really, it will be our pleasure! We love Chava, and she is such good friends with Rivky."
"Can we pay you anything for having her?"
"No, of course not! It's our pleasure!"
"Well, thank you so much! We really appreciate it! It means so much to Chava to go to Beis Rivkah."

[After week is over and Chava ends up moving to basement]
"Well, that was odd! I thought Chava had other arrangements. I guess they fell through. Do you think I should ask her parents about it?" [assumes parents know about things]
[husband shakes head] "Nah, they're probably really embarrassed about imposing on us like that. Let's just leave it alone."

[later in the year]
"Mrs. Almoni, I want to thank you again for having Chava. She is gaining so much from this year."
"Sure! She is so helpful in our house."

See how that might have gone? Why assume neglect?

crust

Fri, Feb 15 2019, 12:04 am

She mentioned that since that Shabbos she did this every time there wasn't enough Amother pink. But that's not my point.

Why do you have to invent so many 'could've been' scenarios- all for the same set of parents? The overall situation screams of neglect and of putting everyone else before their own kids.

And we didn't even discuss that she hosted her younger sibling in CH. Perhaps parentified is a better word. To the ones screaming on the other thread that she ran away from home, so did this other child also run away from home? Gevald.

No. I didn't send away my child to another city without the bare necessities or arrangements. I won't. I hope you also won't.

I am not sure I should continue this dialogue because I honestly don't know the whole story.

I just don't like when a spade is called a butterfly.