If you run a HS that does not accept every applicant

southernbubby

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 9:03 am

amother wrote:

Who is neglectful? The school is private and has the right to remain small. My kids go to a small school and the principle will not open more classes. She runs a great small school but isn’t interested in managing or fundraising an institution. And that is her right.

Why aren’t you neglectful that you didn’t choose to open a school when there wasn’t enough space.
I hold you fully responsible!

I agree with this 100%. There is no "they" who are obligated to be responsible while the rest of us enjoy shmuzzing on imamother.

We also have a primary responsibility to give chinuch to our own children and grandchildren so homeschooled families are not obligated to educate others, any moreso then their neighbors who are not raising children are. Their so-called "school" doesn't have to be open to others.

Those who do take communal responsibility get special merits from Hashem if it is truly done for the benefit of the community.

Chayalle

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 10:02 am

keym wrote:

I'm going to throw out another question.
Money?
Is it OK for a school to choose the students who are able to pay full tuition over those who can't.

It's OK for them to do so but it might not be so ok for them.

I know of a certain school in Lakewood that tried this one year. They were newish at the time and really needed some paying parents, so that year they focused on those who could contribute to the school financially in their acceptance process.

In the end it was to their detriment. They dealt with alot of social issues that year, and in the following years, it took them some time to recover, as the type of families they wanted did not make them their first choice.

Schools benefit from a certain amount of diversity - even financial diversity - in the parent body. It adds a certain wholesomeness, and everyone learns from everyone.

Chayalle

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 10:06 am

amother wrote:

I work as part of the admin in a very large hs that has an average of 5 classes per grade. This year we got for the incoming 9th grade, over 180 applicants. Our building is exploading as it is. We physically don’t have where to put another 3-4 classes. So yes, there are over 40 girls that got rejected. Some of the girls weren’t a fit hashkafically, some of the girls weren’t a fit academically, but for every girl that didn’t get in there was a true valid reason. They literally don’t have a choice.
In addition, Part of My job is to supervise the girl’s cellphones. I see over and over the girls that come from families that aren’t a good fit for our school struggle with certain restrictions that the school demands. They beg to get in and then once they are in, all of the sudden they are up and arms when they think the school is turning too much to the “right”. I can’t say schools never make mistakes but overall when a school rejects, parents need to rethink their choices of schools that they are trying to get in to and for the way they lead their life.
I’m not talking about lkwd where there’s a lot of “reputation” and money involved. I’m talking about communities like LA, Passaic, 5 Towns, Chicago etc that have mainstream community schools that at times reject girls.

Newsflash - lkwd has the same issues you describe in your post, just at an escalated percentage. Most of the schools are not accepting students due to a lack of space - not because of reputation and money. And often when they are pushed to accept students who are not hashkafically on the same page, they deal with the same struggles you describe. And yet, they accept a percentage of these students anyway.

Your post made some good points until you got to the last paragraph.

Chayalle

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 10:13 am

amother wrote:

OK, I read your post.

Regarding hashkafic compatibility: can you please explain how exactly the school can determine who will be a good fit.
I'm asking in all sincerity, if a mother looks and acts the part at the interview, does that mean that the family has good hashkafos?
If all parents sign that that their children don't have internet access and/or cell phones, do you really believe that all are being truthful?
You really have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.
How can you possibly judge who has solid hashkafos and who does not.
And if a teenager struggles with abiding with school rules, so what? There will always be difficult and defiant teens-deal with it.

I can say this from the experience of having a daughter who graduated from a school with a hashkafically toxic environment.
It is a recipe for spiritual disaster when you place so many academically and/or hashkafically weak students together in one school.
It is NOT in the best interest of these children's ruchniyus.

Regarding space constraints: The weak students are always the ones who are left behind when there are limited slots.
There should be some kind of system in place where every school must accept some of the applicants who are academically weak.
Many of them already have poor self-esteem, don't make them suffer and feel unwanted.
It is CRUELTY.
Reject some of the smart/A-students who applied to the school as a backup or second choice, they have no doubt been accepted by their first choice.
And if they haven't for some reason, they will not have difficulty in finding another school who will happily accept them.
If schools were truly not rejecting out of gaiva, and had an iota of compassion and concern for both the spiritual and emotional wellbeing of our precious children they would take these actions.

In fact, Lakewood does that. The Vaad insists that every school take a percentage of the students who were not accepted in the first place - often for these very reasons. No school can claim to have only academically superior, or Hashkafically "superior" students.

keym

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 10:22 am

Chayalle wrote:

I agree.
But I was pointing out that on imamother, on one hand you have posters saying its Gaiva for a school to ever reject a parent, and on the other hand there's an understanding that schools can't do it for free, and they need money to teach.

2 points about Lakewood schools.
1) with the amount of families pouring in, its very very hard to actually ensure there are enough slots before the season starts.
Someone in the know told my husband that this year, 80 applications at least are from girls not from Lakewood Elementary Schools whose families plan to move within the next 9 months. (That's 2-3 full classes).
2)the crisis is both about actual slots and types of slots. Ateres Nechama (Bnos Bina's high school) was going to open another class or 2 two years ago. But its kind of foolish to think that the average Bais Faiga, Bnos Deborah, Tiferes BY (mentioning mainstream schools with no high school attached) girl can be happy or thrive in such a school. Streimlach fathers, Yiddish speaking, girls wearing seams. That's the cultural incompatibility.
And in Lakewood its getting worse. As we become more and more diverse, the difference between various high schools become different. And saying that my daughter equally belongs in Bnos Bais Yaakov, Bais Yaakov, Meon, or Ateres Nechama is ridiculous. Of course she could fit in 2 maybe 3. But they are not all the same.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 10:58 am

I've ranted about this many times before, so this is the short version.

DD has learning issues. She got bounced around several frum schools, and finally ended up in public school, where she thrived both socially and academically.

She is still so angry about the way the schools, and the other girls, treated her. She is absolutely not frum at all these days,and says "why would I want to be, if that's the way people are going to act?"

I can't blame her a bit. There is a very special place in hell for administrators who abandon and reject precious Jewish children. I would not want to stand in their shoes at 120 for all the money in the world.

May they receive all their rewards in this life. Mad

Chayalle

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 11:16 am

keym wrote:

Agree. At the same time, people put too much emphasis on the type of school. Many students can have successful high school years (with the right attitude) at quite a few Lakewood schools, even if they are not their first choice. As we become more diverse and we grow, there's a need for people to be more open-minded about those choices.

We had a relative who insisted on one and only one high school for their child. She did not get in, and after the school year started, they finally enrolled her in their 2nd choice, where she has done very well. They could have spared themselves that with a little more flexibility.

I remember talking to my DD of that same age, and she asked me what I would do in that situation, since she keenly felt that girl's pain all summer with "no" high school. I told her that I would take choice b or even c - both of which are good, Jewish schools with a bit of variation/diversity.

FTR - over 25 years ago I did not get into the high school that, at the time, looked like the best fit for me. They simply had limited space, I was coming from an unaffiliated elementary school, and they had an attached elementary school that got Kadima. My parents sent me to the local BY instead. It was somewhat to the left, hashkafically, of my family and where/who I was at the time.

I did very well in the high school I went to. It should probably have been my first choice. In other areas, it was probably a better fit, even though I didn't see it that way at the time.

I think people make more of a deal than necessary about "fit", "type", etc...my own experience feeds my viewpoint.

chestnut

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 2:03 pm

amother wrote:

I used to work at a school that had (IMHO) a very fair admission policy.

They didn't wait until all of the applications came in and then cherry pick the best. They took the applications more or less in order, and checked if the student fit the school's main criteria. If yes - in. If no - move on to the next.

But this "all the good students get into the school and we shunt everyone else off into 'other' schools" is good for nobody.

It reminds me of my dear high school that decided one year (only, I think) to split up the classes into what I referred to as the Smart, Average, Dumb, and Bum classes. You can imagine what girls felt like. For reference, I started off in the Smart class and was downgraded to the Average class in the middle of the year.

Great Chinuch, all of this.

Choose students as you go doesn't make sense. How is it decided who gets an interview when? Just cause someone got an interview on the 3rd day, they shouldn't even be considered?

Regarding Smart, Average, Dumb, and Bum classes. It's called tracking. You can be in Smart class for English and Dumb for math. Guess what? It's FINE and that's what schools SHOULD have, instead of trying to get only smart kids!! This way the weaker kids do get into these schools AND are taught on THEIR level, instead of just being a furniture in class, not understanding anything. And smarter kids can be challenged more in their tracks.

What do schools think happens with all those elementary school kids who were getting P3 and schools were more than happy to have those small groups for providers??? Do they not need the service just cause they finished 8th grade?? Ah, they want to be known as an "academic" school. But not cause they teach so well, only cause they get academic girls to begin with.

imorethanamother

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 2:16 pm

keym wrote:

2)the crisis is both about actual slots and types of slots. Ateres Nechama (Bnos Bina's high school) was going to open another class or 2 two years ago. But its kind of foolish to think that the average Bais Faiga, Bnos Deborah, Tiferes BY (mentioning mainstream schools with no high school attached) girl can be happy or thrive in such a school. Streimlach fathers, Yiddish speaking, girls wearing seams. That's the cultural incompatibility.
And in Lakewood its getting worse. As we become more and more diverse, the difference between various high schools become different. And saying that my daughter equally belongs in Bnos Bais Yaakov, Bais Yaakov, Meon, or Ateres Nechama is ridiculous. Of course she could fit in 2 maybe 3. But they are not all the same.

I literally don't understand this. "As we become more and more diverse, the difference between various high schools become different"??? Is this really your rationale?

I went to an OOT high school. It was a melting pot of all types - lubavitch, yeshivish, modern, Russian. It was the most amazing experience of my life.

The problems we have today is that apparently white socks versus black socks are indicative of some kind of vast void between our two "diverse" groups that we can no longer intermingle. Do we need another Amalek to remind us how we are all the same? And how we serve the same God?

I feel so very bad for all of you people who live in Lakewood and NY. You're so busy creating your cliques and your criteria and who belong where.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 2:16 pm

chestnut wrote:

Regarding Smart, Average, Dumb, and Bum classes. It's called tracking. You can be in Smart class for English and Dumb for math. Guess what? It's FINE and that's what schools SHOULD have, instead of trying to get only smart kids!! This way the weaker kids do get into these schools AND are taught on THEIR level, instead of just being a furniture in class, not understanding anything. And smarter kids can be challenged more in their tracks.

I clarified above that it wasn't for SUBJECTS. You were in the dumb class all the way through. I don't think it is good for students to feel lumped into categories like that. The "smart" class was all superior and stuck-up, and the "bum" class felt that rebellion was expected from them and it just made things worse.

Trying to keep all kids in environments identical to how the administration sees them is not a good thing IMHO.

amother

Bronze

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 2:21 pm

Miri1 wrote:

Wouldn't it be amazing if there was a central applications process for each community, which would serve to
A) keep all the institutions on the same schedule, while at the same time
B) acting as a clearing house to make sure every child has his or her place.

Well, the MO community in NY has the first -- through the JEP (formerly the BJE) -- standardizes the admissions process.

But you can't make sure everyone has a place. Sara is a lovely girl, but not really very academically talented. However, her parents only want her in one of the two top schools for academics, so that's where they apply. They're shocked that she're rejected. Should the JEP force the schools to accept her, although they know they're not right for her? Sure, there's another school that would be perfect for her, and that has slots. But you can't force Sara's parents to send her there.

In any case, at least in the MO world, there are schools that are supposed to have 80 to 100 students per grade, have stretched themselves to the limits to take 120 to 150, but that get 500 to 600 applications per year. They just cannot, physically, accept everyone.

amother

Bronze

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 2:34 pm

amother wrote:

Are we talking about this year? A poster from Bergen county said earlier that waitlisted kids need to wait another month. Apparently that's the new system.

It is, not surprisingly, a little harder to place a child who has been home schooled. You don't have a recommendation from a classroom teacher, and it's much harder to get a sense for where the kid is socially and behaviorally.

But I find it hard to believe that no school will take this applicant.

How on earth could this work? (It clearly didn't exist when my kids applied.) Too many schools are simply too far apart, and have transportation issues. It would be lovely to tell me that although I live in Connecticut, my kid is now lucky to have a spot on Long Island. Also meaningless, given the commute.

southernbubby

Thu, Feb 21 2019, 2:40 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

I can't blame anyone for rejecting a society that rejects them. Sometimes they have friends in school but are rejected by shidduchim. In that case, everyone has choices and we don't marry someone that we don't like in order to keep them frum.

I have seen other kids who could only succeed in public school but it wasn't due to lack of effort by the frum schools. A dual Hebrew/English program is too challenging for some students.

I have also seen and experienced small schools that expect only what the students can do. My preemie was one such student until he overcame his poor start at age 13. My niece also went to a small OOT day school that accommodated her dyslexia.

I have also seen parents who, like you, are certain that the school administration is going to hell!