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About Bribes and Rewards
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Nov 14 2004, 5:38 pm
about the Talmid/Talmida Ha'Shavua - in order to give everyone a chance at it, that means that even if a child behaves and does everything right, he/she won't get the certificate that week, and for many, many weeks, because he/she got it last week!

see what I mean?

so how is the child supposed to understand that - that even though they behaved in a way that made them deserving of the certificate, they didn't get it because ????? Doesn't seem very encouraging ...

another point - how does the teacher decide what "good davening" is?

In some classrooms, it's how LOUD you say it, with kids outdoing each other in screaming Confused

it's about a finger on the place and looking in the siddur

now, it's certainly important for little children to follow along inside and say the words out loud, but at what age do teachers/rebis convey to their students that although a person can say all the words while looking inside, this does NOT constitute "good davening"?

That saying all the words while looking inside, while thinking about your new toy or what you're going to eat during recess, is NOT good davening.

That "good davening" can't be marked ...

Quote:
I believe the greatest motivator for children is showing them our pride in them.


probably true
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hadasa




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 15 2004, 12:54 am
My son's class had 4-5 Mitztaynei Hashavua every week. He was once included for about 3 weeks in a row. These kids would accompany the teacher on Mivtzoim Thursday after school.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 15 2004, 2:08 pm
Quote:
My son's class had 4-5 Mitztaynei Hashavua every week. He was once included for about 3 weeks in a row


good to hear someone figured it out! in my experience, most don't
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 15 2004, 2:45 pm
anyway, I brought up the certificates because I was wondering if that is included in the category of gashmiyus prizes the Rebbe says arent needed anymore to motivate.

it depends on your teaching style and what you do with these certificates. with the younger grades, does everybody get a chance? yes but only the week that they deserve it. the kids dont know that everyone will have a chance, and they know for sure someone who does not deserve it will not be the talmid hashavua. it is a great motivator for the students who dont put much effort into school, and the students who deserve it every week understand that someone else also wants a chance to get it.
it depends if you use the certificate as a motivator or as an award. for motivation, it makes sense that only one child a week will get it, and if its an award then many kids should receive it each week.
usually the ones who complain about the talmid hashavua are the parents who feel bad that their kid wasnt awarded it yet and think their kid deserves it.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Nov 15 2004, 3:00 pm
Quote:
usually the ones who complain about the talmid hashavua are the parents who feel bad that their kid wasnt awarded it yet and think their kid deserves it.


or the ones who think their kids deserve it every week 8)
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 14 2006, 9:58 pm
Smile
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mali




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 17 2006, 5:35 am
Motek wrote:
another point - how does the teacher decide what "good davening" is?

In some classrooms, it's how LOUD you say it, with kids outdoing each other in screaming Confused
Very true! I NEVER got an award for good Davening. My friend, who has a beautiful voice, and always sang the loudest, was always getting prizes. I can't help thinking back to those years, when I really tried Davening hard, but never once got that nice Siddur to take home for Shabbos (that was the prize for being best of the week in Davening). My friend got it countless times. Even in the weeks I Davened out loud, the teachers didn't notice it. They were used to me being a quiet Davener. Oh well...

But that's a side issue.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Oct 31 2007, 10:13 pm
being that it's Chof Cheshvan, I decided to revive this thread since the first post quotes the Lubavitcher Rebbe who said these statements on this date (which marks the birthday of the fifth Lubavitcher Rebbe)
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 3:24 am
When my son was in 5th grade he had an excellent class and an excellent Rebbi. One day he came home and told me that his class decided together (the Rebbi confirmed to me that the boys came up with the idea by themselves) to erase all their points in the school contest so that their mitzvos would be l'shem shamayim. They were far out front. I felt, well you know Very Happy ... as ds was the class representative I knew that he was def involved in this decision.

A year later he came to me and cried because he said he decided "not to be a tzaddik any more because you lose friends". The status quo had won out. Everyone else is giving out bicycles, trips - at least candy or class sleep over.I took him out of the school but much damage was done. The melamed went through a terrible period of burn out as he had put so much into this class for 2 years and they were good boys when he got them.

The ugly fact is that the kids do not need these prizes and can have higher motives but the adults sell them short. At the youngest age they tell their kids that they cannot be doing something l'shem shamayim or to be nice or other good motive. Whoever does something to please HaShem or their parents is a friar.

One of my teachers pointed out the injustice we do to our kids when we train them that they a payment for everything. Then they get to yeshiva and all year long they hear about bittul until the end of the year when they get a teuda hitzayenut. Several weeks later at my other son's end of the year I was told to be sure to be there as my son was receiving a special teuda. I was thinking all the time about what the rav said but I couldn't not go. After the ceremony where he was praised and photographed w/the RY he came over to me and handed me the framed teuda and said,"These are for the mothers". I understood that he was being taught the same things I was and rested at ease for his next 2 years in that yeshiva.

Talmid HaShavua - Very hard to do right w.o nurturing pride in some and destroying the motivation of others.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 12:42 pm
Imaonwheels wrote:
When my son was in 5th grade he had an excellent class and an excellent Rebbi. One day he came home and told me that his class decided together (the Rebbi confirmed to me that the boys came up with the idea by themselves) to erase all their points in the school contest so that their mitzvos would be l'shem shamayim.


wow!

Quote:
A year later he came to me and cried because he said he decided "not to be a tzaddik any more because you lose friends".


What did he mean by tzaddik and why did he lose friends (I.e. what does this have to do with prizes?)
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gryp




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 12:57 pm
Quote:
The ugly fact is that the kids do not need these prizes and can have higher motives but the adults sell them short.

Yup, and throwing donuts and candy at kids who do what they are supposed to un-trains them to act like animals, nothing more.
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Mimisinger




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 12:58 pm
-sorry, I sent it twice...

Last edited by Mimisinger on Thu, Nov 01 2007, 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mimisinger




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 12:59 pm
It's funny, this exact thread is what I'm writing my masters thesis on - Motivation in education. There is a time and place for extrinsic motivation - both immediate and delayed - both the candy the minute you bentch and then the certificate that you have to work for. There is also a time and place for intrinsic motivation - motivation that comes from within. There are a lot of types of all of these motivations and purposes behind them. But, the thing to remember, is, if it's not working - you have to change tactics. If 5 years later, kids are only bentching b/c they get rewards, you have given too many rewards.

For little kids they need the instant gratification - candy works well b/c it uses all of the senses - hearing the crinkling of the wrapper, seeing the bright colors, tasting it, smelling it, touching its stickiness. But that's a very superficial method of motivation. It works, but not for long. You then move onto delayed gratification - the certificate that you get if you did something right 10 times. After that, you move into intrinsic motivation. Doing it because it makes you feel good. Doing it because it's a mitzvah, and the highest level, doing it because you know it makes you a better person - improves you.

Read Zarya U'binim b'chinuch by Reb Wolbe it talks about all of this and comes in Hebrew or English.

Or if you want some good journals or books I can give you some titles...Smile
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 2:05 pm
Mimisinger wrote:
If 5 years later, kids are only bentching b/c they get rewards, you have given too many rewards.


And what do you do then?

Quote:
For little kids they need the instant gratification - candy works well b/c it uses all of the senses - hearing the crinkling of the wrapper, seeing the bright colors, tasting it, smelling it, touching its stickiness. But that's a very superficial method of motivation. It works, but not for long. You then move onto delayed gratification - the certificate that you get if you did something right 10 times. After that, you move into intrinsic motivation. Doing it because it makes you feel good. Doing it because it's a mitzvah, and the highest level, doing it because you know it makes you a better person - improves you.


The first post in this thread says this is not applicable any more.
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Imaonwheels




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 2:47 pm
Motek wrote:
Imaonwheels wrote:
When my son was in 5th grade he had an excellent class and an excellent Rebbi. One day he came home and told me that his class decided together (the Rebbi confirmed to me that the boys came up with the idea by themselves) to erase all their points in the school contest so that their mitzvos would be l'shem shamayim.


wow!

Quote:
A year later he came to me and cried because he said he decided "not to be a tzaddik any more because you lose friends".


What did he mean by tzaddik and why did he lose friends (I.e. what does this have to do with prizes?)


This class was unusual in the school and in the other classes they tons of discipline problems. They kept making contests to motivate and ds's class always came in 1st as they were really good kids. Not only did it cause a sour grapes effect in the other classes but made our boys very unpopular. They were goody goodies, teachers pets and little tzaddikim. The other kids did the minimum but got prizes because the school thought that if you bribed them they would get better. Everyone got much worse. We begged them to see that in the best class the best Rebbi was demanding not bribing. It was fun but he always expected the kids to enjoy the learning or mitzvos themselves.

They decided these kids were unusual because they weren't in it for the booty.
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red sea




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Nov 01 2007, 6:31 pm
Motek, first of all, great topic, never saw it before. I have question, do you know if the rambam wrote the part about nuts because that was not in the quoted text you gave, just curious. But maybe it is all about that people don't realize what truly appeals to young children these days, and its not the prizes, while they do get immediate satisfaction ingrained in the children (one more habit for them to correct as adults). There is one school that I know of which is only a handful of years old that is truly doing an amazing experiment (for lack of a better thing to call it). The children are not rewarded at all for their learning or work. No snacks, no prizes, no stickers. They are finding that the children love to learn for the sake of it and are keeping that credulous wide eyed love of learning intact, while everyone else seems to lose that love before first grade or so. I really hope this school flourishes beyond belief so that other schools will look to for inspiration.
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Motek




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Nov 02 2007, 11:34 am
red sea wrote:
I have question, do you know if the rambam wrote the part about nuts because that was not in the quoted text you gave, just curious.


you're thinking of the Rambam (Hilchos Yom Tov 6:17-18 ) where he says, "A person is obligated to be happy on these days, he, his children, his wife, his grandchildren, and all those who have joined his family ...
How is this practiced? One distributes parched grain, nuts, and delicacies to the children ... "
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