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Help me wise mothers



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Sleepymama




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 2:21 pm
My daughter is in 5th grade. It seems her teacher taught them today about eishet yifat to'ar. Badly. She came home very disturbed. I would never have taught this subject to girls this age. I told her that it's obviously a seemingly disturbing concept but that there are deeper meanings to it that shed a lot of light on the whole concept. I know that I once learned it in a way that made sense to me, but I can't remember exactly what it was. I looked it up(briefly) and couldn't find an explanation that would work for a fifth grader. Can anyone help me out?
I'm looking for a way to explain this that doesn't make men or torah seem barbaric
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behappy2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 2:30 pm
What part is your daughter finding disrurbing?
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 2:34 pm
How did the teacher describe it?

Here is the way it was taught for kids in an email I get with Parsha and daily shiurim: (kidschitas.org)

Quote:
Aishes Yefas Toar: When the Yidden went to fight against the non jews, the non jews would sometimes try to stop the Yidden from fighting, by getting them to think about what their Yetzer Hara wanted instead of about the job they needed to do!

One of the tricks they would use is to have beautiful women nearby, so the Yidden would want to get married instead of fighting.

Moshe Rabbeinu tells the Yidden what to do if this happens — and it is a trick that can work when our Yetzer Haras try to trick us too!

Instead of doing anything right away, the soldier needs to bring the woman home, and not give her anything to make her look beautiful — he needs to do things to make her look ugly! If he still wants to marry her after a month, he is allowed to. And if he changes his mind later, he can’t keep her as a servant — he needs to send her away to wherever she wants to go.

That’s a good trick for us too: We can have ISKAFYA — telling our Yetzer Hara to just wait a little bit! Sometimes that’s enough for us to realize that we don’t want that thing SO much. We can also remind ourselves that the things the Yetzer Hara wants aren’t really so special or beautiful!
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 2:38 pm
amother wrote:
How did the teacher describe it?

Here is the way it was taught for kids in an email I get with Parsha and daily shiurim: (kidschitas.org)

Quote:
Aishes Yefas Toar: When the Yidden went to fight against the non jews, the non jews would sometimes try to stop the Yidden from fighting, by getting them to think about what their Yetzer Hara wanted instead of about the job they needed to do!

One of the tricks they would use is to have beautiful women nearby, so the Yidden would want to get married instead of fighting.

Moshe Rabbeinu tells the Yidden what to do if this happens — and it is a trick that can work when our Yetzer Haras try to trick us too!

Instead of doing anything right away, the soldier needs to bring the woman home, and not give her anything to make her look beautiful — he needs to do things to make her look ugly! If he still wants to marry her after a month, he is allowed to. And if he changes his mind later, he can’t keep her as a servant — he needs to send her away to wherever she wants to go.

That’s a good trick for us too: We can have ISKAFYA — telling our Yetzer Hara to just wait a little bit! Sometimes that’s enough for us to realize that we don’t want that thing SO much. We can also remind ourselves that the things the Yetzer Hara wants aren’t really so special or beautiful!


I find this inappropriate too for kids 10-11 years of age. They're too young to be explicitly taught that men desire beautiful women. Some of them may have awareness of it, but to literally bring it to the forefronts of their minds at this age is totally inappropriate.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 2:39 pm
The essence of the mitsvah is to pause to reflect, and to discern truth from fiction. If one truly loves another, and has a true soul connection with her, then he will love her when when she is not pleasing or easy to be around.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 2:46 pm
amother wrote:
I find this inappropriate too for kids 10-11 years of age. They're too young to be explicitly taught that men desire beautiful women. Some of them may have awareness of it, but to literally bring it to the forefronts of their minds at this age is totally inappropriate.

Why are they too young? They are going to feel it themselves soon! I tell my boys that they will have Taavas Nashim (they laugh about it because now it sounds weird to them), but they won't be surprised when it comes up, and they will already be prepared with the knowledge that we save it until we get married.

I don't believe that you will induce [inappropriate] thoughts in a 10-year-old by telling them that they will want to get married later, and even for a 15-year-old, it's good for them to hear what the Torah says on the topic.
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trixx




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 2:51 pm
I don't get what she is disturbed by. If you narrow it down then you can focus on it.

I learned this halacha on my own, in the Rambam, in 6th grade as part of a competition. Never had an issue with it.
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Sleepymama




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 2:56 pm
Thanks for all the responses.
She was disturbed that they would "take" the beautiful woman against their will. That they purposely do things to make them look ugly. That they make them cry for their families. The whole idea that they would desire these non jewish women and just "take" them is what is disturbing to her. How on earth am I supposed to explain lust to this innocent child?
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Sleepymama




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 2:58 pm
Rappel wrote:
The essence of the mitsvah is to pause to reflect, and to discern truth from fiction. If one truly loves another, and has a true soul connection with her, then he will love her when when she is not pleasing or easy to be around.


This is the essence of the mitzvah, you're right. But you have to understand the nature of lust, s-xuality and desire to really get what they are even talking about here...
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Sleepymama




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 3:03 pm
I wish it had been taught in a lighter more kid friendly way, like the newsletter aquamarine shared.
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ckk




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 3:08 pm
Sleepymama wrote:
Thanks for all the responses.
She was disturbed that they would "take" the beautiful woman against their will. That they purposely do things to make them look ugly. That they make them cry for their families. The whole idea that they would desire these non jewish women and just "take" them is what is disturbing to her. How on earth am I supposed to explain lust to this innocent child?


Seems to me that what she is struggling with is nothing to do with lust. Its the barbaric way wars were fought and won and the barbaric way prisoners of war were treated.
Simply tell her times were different then and in that context these halachas were actually kind. We are so lucky to live in civilised times.
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 5:07 pm
ckk wrote:
Seems to me that what she is struggling with is nothing to do with lust. Its the barbaric way wars were fought and won and the barbaric way prisoners of war were treated.
Simply tell her times were different then and in that context these halachas were actually kind. We are so lucky to live in civilised times.


Maybe I would say that to a child, but war does bring out the animalistic side in people—in every century, including ours. Research the war crimes that American soldiers—who were probably your average American teen at home—committed on foreign POWs during war in recent times. As far as I recall it’s pretty horrifying. Yet we like to pretend that can’t happen in civilized times. What’s so fascinating about this passage in Torah is that it fully acknowledges the barbaric side we all have within us that manifests in times of war, and understands that we can’t suppress it, so offers an alternative way of dealing with the dark side of human nature.
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ckk




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 07 2019, 5:25 pm
amother wrote:
Maybe I would say that to a child, but war does bring out the animalistic side in people—in every century, including ours. Research the war crimes that American soldiers—who were probably your average American teen at home—committed on foreign POWs during war in recent times. As far as I recall it’s pretty horrifying. Yet we like to pretend that can’t happen in civilized times. What’s so fascinating about this passage in Torah is that it fully acknowledges the barbaric side we all have within us that manifests in times of war, and understands that we can’t suppress it, so offers an alternative way of dealing with the dark side of human nature.


For sure. But its what I would tell my 10 yr old. I need them sleeping at night, not worrying about war crimes in somalia in 2018. Or Afghanistan. Or wherever.

Eta, I wouldnt lie to calm down a kid. But the truth is that morally, ethically the world has made alot of progress in its standards in what is acceptable behaviour . Its just not all live up to those standards
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sarahmalka




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 08 2019, 6:39 pm
When you talk to your DD about this again, let her ask the questions she needs to be cleared up. Ask her open ended questions like "what about this bothered you" or "what didn't you understand" or "which parts would you like me to explain" so you can get a clear picture of exactly what is troubling her. And then address it.
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 08 2019, 8:40 pm
trixx wrote:
I don't get what she is disturbed by. If you narrow it down then you can focus on it.

I learned this halacha on my own, in the Rambam, in 6th grade as part of a competition. Never had an issue with it.


I’m kind of shocked that people don’t understand why this topic is disturbing. That said, I like what ckk said.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 08 2019, 9:04 pm
I find it disturbing too. Good luck!
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