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Literature, how important?
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yo'ma




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 8:55 am
My dd and I were discussing literature and poetry with this man who was an english literature major in college eons ago. He was saying how important it is and the meaning behind the writings, etc. My dd asked, why? How does it affect her life? Philosophy might be considered another story, but do these stories or poems have something to teach us that makes it important. Yes, it makes us more educated, but more that that? Do you really think Shakespeare thought what can people get from his plays or he was very talented, loved it, and a way to make a living?

I admit, I'm not a reader of the classics. I'm not the most educated person there is, but how would my life be any different if I did?

I'm not asking for each question to be answered, more for a discussion. I know my writing is lousy, but it has more to do with my lack of talent and not reading growing up than not reading the classics and poetry Wink , IMO.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 9:15 am
Reading at that level teaches you critical thinking skills, and builds your vocabulary so you can be more articulate and artistic in your own writing - whether practical or for self-expression.

It exposes you to creativity and art, as well as allowing you to get into the minds of other people (fictional characters as well as the authors) in a way that builds empathy and psychological insight. The patterns of human behavior that you encounter, as well as the author's way of depicting them, gives you new ways of making sense of other people, yourself, and the world around you.
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 9:38 am
I think well-written fiction is important. It teaches you to think critically, expands vocabulary, helps you understand humanity. Good readers are usually good writers, and being able to communicate well in writing is important, especially in this day and age where most communication is written. I don't necessarily think there is anything that is a must-read (well, I mean, anything that I love is a must-read of course Smile but you know what I mean).

I don't think something is more important or of better quality just because it was written 200 years ago. Actually, the early novels (such as Robinson Crusoe or Gulliver's Travels) were not actually that good, IMO. The novel was still a very new concept, so most modern readers have a hard time getting through those. And I don't think you need to in order to be a "well rounded" or "educated" person! I find those early novels more useful for their historical merit and their contributions to shaping literature as we know than for their actual literary merit.

Interesting that you bring up Shakespeare. For one thing, novels didn't really exist yet in his time. For another, he wrote plays, so they're not meant to be read, they're meant to be watched. It really changes the experience (for the better) to see a Shakespeare play performed as opposed to reading it. And I don't think one necessarily needs to read or watch Shakespeare, but it really is amazing how much he contributed to English language and literature as well as modern Western culture. Shakespeare very heavily influenced the English language as we know it. And his influence is extremely pervasive in all the literature, TV shows, and movies that we are most familiar with. So you can skip him, you'll still get plenty of Shakespeare with everything you read and watch even if you don't realize it. Although I must say, it's super fun to be watching some silly movie and suddenly realize it's totally the plot of Hamlet or Midsummer Night's Dream or something, and you miss out on that fun if you're not familiar with Shakespeare Smile .
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 9:40 am
Oh my goodness yes. Literature is so important. Of course poems and stories have something to teach you. They teach empathy, imagination, history, sociology, psychology, and more. They allow you to feel part of the world, to take part in the conversation of great minds throughout the centuries. To share in the dreams and visions of the collective unconscious. It's like asking how chocolate affects your life. You can live without it, but why would you want to?

How old is your DD? Was she just trying to play devil's advocate in the conversation, or does she truly dislike reading? And how did the former English major respond to her questions?
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 9:44 am
There is evidence that reading literature makes you a better, more empathetic person.
Note in the article below the distinction between popular fiction and literary fiction. Reading Danielle Steel won't help; you need to read something like Jane Austin or Charlotte Bronte or E. M. Forster. The point is to read fiction where the characters are complex and behave in unexpected ways.

https://www.scientificamerican.....athy/
Quote:

How important is reading fiction in socializing school children? Researchers at The New School in New York City have found evidence that literary fiction improves a reader’s capacity to understand what others are thinking and feeling.

Emanuele Castano, a social psychologist, along with PhD candidate David Kidd conducted five studies in which they divided a varying number of participants (ranging from 86 to 356) and gave them different reading assignments: excerpts from genre (or popular) fiction, literary fiction, nonfiction or nothing. After they finished the excerpts the participants took a test that measured their ability to infer and understand other people’s thoughts and emotions. The researchers found, to their surprise, a significant difference between the literary- and genre-fiction readers.

When study participants read non-fiction or nothing, their results were unimpressive. When they read excerpts of genre fiction, such as Danielle Steel’s The Sins of the Mother, their test results were dually insignificant. However, when they read literary fiction, such as The Round House by Louise Erdrich, their test results improved markedly—and, by implication, so did their capacity for empathy. The study was published October 4 in Science.

The results are consistent with what literary criticism has to say about the two genres—and indeed, this may be the first empirical evidence linking literary and psychological theories of fiction. Popular fiction tends to portray situations that are otherworldly and follow a formula to take readers on a roller-coaster ride of emotions and exciting experiences. Although the settings and situations are grand, the characters are internally consistent and predictable, which tends to affirm the reader’s expectations of others. It stands to reason that popular fiction does not expand the capacity to empathize.

Literary fiction, by contrast, focuses more on the psychology of characters and their relationships. “Often those characters’ minds are depicted vaguely, without many details, and we’re forced to fill in the gaps to understand their intentions and motivations,” Kidd says. This genre prompts the reader to imagine the characters’ introspective dialogues. This psychological awareness carries over into the real world, which is full of complicated individuals whose inner lives are usually difficult to fathom. Although literary fiction tends to be more realistic than popular fiction, the characters disrupt reader expectations, undermining prejudices and stereotypes. They support and teach us values about social behavior, such as the importance of understanding those who are different from ourselves.

The results suggest that reading fiction is a valuable socializing influence. The study data couldinform debates over how much fiction should be included in educational curricula and whether reading programs should be implemented in prisons, where reading literary fiction might improve inmates’ social functioning and empathy. Castano also hopes the finding will encourage autistic people to engage in more literary fiction, in the hope it could improve their ability to empathize without the side effects of medication.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 10:00 am
Shakespeare’s just fun. I don’t like a lot of contemporary productions, but I love reading the text.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 10:02 am
I'm someone who loves good literature. Growing up in a math/practical heavy household, I always felt so misunderstood.... The people around me were both very proud of me yet at the same time a little mystified at my passion for reading....

Even so, I don't think literature is a necessity for everyone. I think that there are those of us with a passion for a well crafted story, clever writing, and well developed, multi dimensional characters, to name just a few, and then there are those who can.... take it or leave it. I don't think there's a moral right or wrong here.

True, good literature can develop a person's mind - but there are actually a lot of other ways to do that. Higher math, for example, is another way to develop the mind... psychology another way.... living and interacting people another way... living and learning develop people's minds and characters in different ways.

Also, not to pull the frum card here, but I really do think that we have a magnificent Torah - both shebichsav and Baal peh - that if learned, can develop a person's mind and character in a way that good literature can only dream of.

I did a report on Abraham Lincoln in college (fairly recently) and I found the whole topic extremely fascinating. One of the things I learned about him was that he grew up with only two books that he read cover to cover over and over again- one was the Bible and I forgot what the second book was. It seems it worked fairly well at sharpening his skills as he is the originator of some of the best and most profound oratory and writing that was created.

I think we sometimes forget how much treasure we have right in our own backyard.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 10:02 am
sequoia wrote:
Shakespeare’s just fun. I don’t like a lot of contemporary productions, but I love reading the text.


Shakespeare is fun! He was the pop culture of his day, like Mozart. OP, if you can read along with a "translation" into contemporary English, that is a good way to help you get into it.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 10:07 am
Also, people have this weird-*** reaction to literature sometimes that I think stems from insecurity (which for some reason doesn’t happen with linear algebra). Someone asked me if I could understand Shakespeare. A bit mystified, I replied of course, he wrote in modern English, same as ours. It’s not Beowulf or even the Canterbury Tales. The person suddenly got all upset and started yelling that *no one* could possibly understand Shakespeare and that people are only pretending to like him.

In truth, it is genuinely a matter of taste.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 10:14 am
I've learned more about the world through the written word than through my entire life experience. Literature is transcendent - it takes you through worlds, perspectives, and ideas you would never have met otherwise. It has enriched me, though I'm careful what I read.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 10:24 am
sequoia wrote:
Also, people have this weird-*** reaction to literature sometimes that I think stems from insecurity (which for some reason doesn’t happen with linear algebra). Someone asked me if I could understand Shakespeare. A bit mystified, I replied of course, he wrote in modern English, same as ours. It’s not Beowulf or even the Canterbury Tales. The person suddenly got all upset and started yelling that *no one* could possibly understand Shakespeare and that people are only pretending to like him.

In truth, it is genuinely a matter of taste.


I'm exactly like this about math, so I guess the situations can be reversed. If someone asks me a simple arithmetic question I panic and freeze like a deer caught in headlights and start yelling about why they would ask me something like that when I don't have a calculator and can't they just add it up themselves. It definitely stems from insecurity and probably some bad early life experiences. Though I agree that understanding math is more of a skill, and understanding literature can be a signifier of social status or culture or education or what have you.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 10:35 am
Try reading any work of classic fiction that you enjoy. It does not have to be Shakespeare. Try Jane Austen or Mark Twain or Dumas or Orwell. Their writing has endured for a reason.
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 10:42 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
I'm someone who loves good literature. Growing up in a math/practical heavy household, I always felt so misunderstood.... The people around me were both very proud of me yet at the same time a little mystified at my passion for reading....

Even so, I don't think literature is a necessity for everyone. I think that there are those of us with a passion for a well crafted story, clever writing, and well developed, multi dimensional characters, to name just a few, and then there are those who can.... take it or leave it. I don't think there's a moral right or wrong here.

True, good literature can develop a person's mind - but there are actually a lot of other ways to do that. Higher math, for example, is another way to develop the mind... psychology another way.... living and interacting people another way... living and learning develop people's minds and characters in different ways.

Also, not to pull the frum card here, but I really do think that we have a magnificent Torah - both shebichsav and Baal peh - that if learned, can develop a person's mind and character in a way that good literature can only dream of.

I did a report on Abraham Lincoln in college (fairly recently) and I found the whole topic extremely fascinating. One of the things I learned about him was that he grew up with only two books that he read cover to cover over and over again- one was the Bible and I forgot what the second book was. It seems it worked fairly well at sharpening his skills as he is the originator of some of the best and most profound oratory and writing that was created.

I think we sometimes forget how much treasure we have right in our own backyard.


When I taught, I taught both English lit and Tanach. People always used to express surprise at that (still do, when I mention it) like it was "so random". I always thought that was kind of weird that it was so hard to find a connection between the two. Of course the motivation is different (Torah is obviously so much more than stories) but the skill set is the same. What were all our meforshim doing? Analyzing a text, of course! And the Torah is replete with character depth, important themes, beautiful language and imagery. And of course, the Bible is the most influential book in history, we're not the only ones who are into it. And then you get into midrash, which I affectionately refer to as fanfiction on tanach Smile
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 10:45 am
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
And then you get into midrash, which I affectionately refer to as fanfiction on tanach Smile

Ok that is adorable, the best and cutest thing I've heard all day! LOL
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mommy3b2c




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 11:05 am
sequoia wrote:
Also, people have this weird-*** reaction to literature sometimes that I think stems from insecurity (which for some reason doesn’t happen with linear algebra). Someone asked me if I could understand Shakespeare. A bit mystified, I replied of course, he wrote in modern English, same as ours. It’s not Beowulf or even the Canterbury Tales. The person suddenly got all upset and started yelling that *no one* could possibly understand Shakespeare and that people are only pretending to like him.

In truth, it is genuinely a matter of taste.


I understand Shakespeare but I have to agree that people only pretend to like him😂
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 11:23 am
mommy3b2c wrote:
I understand Shakespeare but I have to agree that people only pretend to like him😂


No! I think people pretend to like wine.

I agree that Shakespeare is not light reading for modern readers, and I like to have a "translation" nearby when I read one I haven't read before. He is so funny and profound, and taps into such deep emotions - often overdramatized, of course, but that's drama for you. Watching a performance after having read the "script" is really fun.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 11:25 am
youngishbear wrote:
No! I think people pretend to like wine.

And beer LOL
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 11:27 am
urban gypsy wrote:
And beer LOL


Um... no. We have some serious beer drinkers here (at least in theory, I mean... ).

And my son once bought me a relatively expensive wine and I was really able to tell the difference. Maybe the REALLY expensive wines... But I wouldn't know, no-one has offered to buy them for me ...

I never read Shakespeare as he was not allowed in my school, but I think I would enjoy it if I actually understood the language. I'm sure I would, I find that classics become classics for a reason.


Last edited by Mommyg8 on Thu, Apr 25 2019, 11:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 11:28 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Um... no. We have some serious beer drinkers here (at least in theory, I mean... ).


Shakespeare goes down a LOT easier for me! Tongue Out
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Apr 25 2019, 11:40 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Um... no. We have some serious beer drinkers here (at least in theory, I mean... ).

And my son once bought me a relatively expensive wine and I was really able to tell the difference. Maybe the REALLY expensive wines... But I wouldn't know, no-one has offered to buy them for me ...

I never read Shakespeare as he was not allowed in my school, but I think I would enjoy it if I actually understood the language. I'm sure I would, I find that classics become classics for a reason.


Try the "No Fear Shakespeare" series. It has the original on one side and a modern "translation" on the facing page.
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