Ten lost tribes | Imamother

iyar

Sun, Apr 28 2019, 11:56 am

I've seen an old clip of the Lubavitch Rebbe saying in Yiddish at at a farbrengen long ago-
"therefore one should not be surprised when someone finds in South America in the Amazon Hebrew letters or writings or practices as this is all connected to the passuk in Beraishis, "u'me'eileh naftzah kol ha'aretz" (it's at the end of Noach when his three sons left the teivah).
Are there any Chabad ladies here who know what I'm talking about and can post it? The Rebbe was not specifically addressing the topic of the 10 shvatim (or I don't think he was) but it's good to keep in mind that not every reference we find far out in a jungle or desert to Hebrew language or practice is from the lost tribes.
(I'm not pretending to understand the wisdom of the Rebbe in any way. If I've misinterpreted something he said, I'd love to hear from anyone who can correct me.)

amother

cornflower

Sun, Apr 28 2019, 12:17 pm

etky wrote:

According to a famous, ancient legend. The Sambatyon is a fierce, magical river that is impossible to forge except when it rests on Shabbat - the day that the ten tribes are not allowed to travel.

Why do you think its a legend?
Wikipedia?

etky

Sun, Apr 28 2019, 12:39 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Why do you think its a legend?
Wikipedia?

If you would like to believe it go ahead.
As far as I am concerned it is a folktale.

giselle

Sun, Apr 28 2019, 9:49 pm

etky wrote:

According to a famous, ancient legend. The Sambatyon is a fierce, magical river that is impossible to forge except when it rests on Shabbat - the day that the ten tribes are not allowed to travel.

According to this, does that mean not one person who lives behind the Sambatyon is mechallel Shabbos? That’s pretty impressive. And, one has to wonder, probably not so realistic.

amother

Turquoise

Sun, Apr 28 2019, 10:11 pm

There are parts of the world that haven't been explored. For example Sentinel Island. That's only one example.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik.....sland

etky

Mon, Apr 29 2019, 12:09 am

giselle wrote:

According to this, does that mean not one person who lives behind the Sambatyon is mechallel Shabbos? That’s pretty impressive. And, one has to wonder, probably not so realistic.

Yes. They are often depicted as being very devout. There are Yemenite folktales about the tribe of Dan that dwells across the Sambatyon. The stories recount the journey of a member of the Yemenite community who travels to the land of the Danites to enlist them on behalf of the Jewish community that is being persecuted by the Yemini king. The traveler manages to cross the Sambatyon but is then almost executed by the Danites for apparently being Mechalel Shabbat. He is saved only by the testimony of a Danite girl who witnesses his crossing before the Sabbath (they later marry of course but the marriage does not work out).
The ten tribes often appear in both Jewish and Christian tales as warlike super-humans with unnatural - especially martial - powers.
They, and the Sambatyon, appear in messianic and apocalyptic contexts in both religions and also figure in 'prophecies' concerning Shabbtai Tzvi and as the background for such colorful characters like Eldad Hadani and David Ha-Reuveni who claimed extraction from the ten tribes.

amother

cornflower

Mon, Apr 29 2019, 12:22 am

etky wrote:

I never heard this folktale before.

stillgrowing

Mon, Apr 29 2019, 9:26 am

OP:Thank you so much for bumping this topic again. I'd love to hear any more info that people want to share.

b.chadash

Wed, May 26 2021, 11:19 am

Bumping up this old topic.

There was a man by the name of Rav Eliyahu Avichail who made it his life's mission to identify the ten lost tribes. He traveled around the world, and succeeded in identifying many of them. He wrote 6 books about his travels. He passed away in 2015.

I also found several shiurim on Torah anytime discussing this topic. A 4-part series by Rabbi Glatstien, and a short treatment of it by Rabbi Breitowitz.

Last edited by b.chadash on Wed, May 26 2021, 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total

avrahamama

Wed, May 26 2021, 11:24 am

b.chadash wrote:

Bumping up this old topic.

There was a man by the name of Rav Eliyahu Avichail who made it his life's mission to identify the ten lost tribes. He traveled around the world, and succeeded in identifying many of them. He wrote 6 books about his travels. He passed away in 2015.

I also found several shiurim on Torah anytime discussing this topic. A 4 part series by Rabbi Glatstien, and a short treatment of it by Rabbi Breitowitz.

Can you link the rabbi glatstein shiurim?

b.chadash

Wed, May 26 2021, 11:36 am

avrahamama wrote:

Can you link the rabbi glatstein shiurim?

Rabbi Glatstien:
Part 1: https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....29941

Part 2: https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....29966

Part 3: https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....30004

Part 4: https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....30079

b.chadash

Wed, May 26 2021, 11:56 am

This is the Q&A session with Rabbi Breitowitz, in which he talks briefly about the 10 lost Tribes. The relevant part starts at 52 minutes. https://www.torahanytime.com/#.....87715

(There is also a 3-part series by Rabbi Veiner but I haven't heard that one. )

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 01 2021, 5:31 pm

etky wrote:

If you would like to believe it go ahead.
As far as I am concerned it is a folktale.

This thread was started 2 years ago, and at the time, many people were very interested in it. I just delved into the topic so I want to share a bit, especially in light of this comment that it's a "legend. "

There is a part that is legend, in which some meforshim say, you are not required to believe it. The story is given as the background for the piut of Akdamus. The story goes that somewhere near Asia, there was a Jewish community who was being threatened by a priest who had magical powers and who was killing Jews with his gaze.
He convinced the king to force the Jews to engage in a debate with him, and if he won, the jews would be forced to convert to christianity. The Jews were terrified and they decided that only the Jews on the other side of the Sambatyon would be able to help them. The problem was of course that the Sambatyon was impassable, except for Shabbos. Since it was pikuach nefesh, they determined that they were allowed to have a messenger, named Rabbi Meir ben Yitzchak shliach tzibbur, cross over on Shabbos, which he did. Once he came over, the Jews there imprisoned him for being mechalel Shabbos, but then he explained his mission. They agreed to send a man to the other side to debate the priest. During the week after Rabbi Meir came and before the other man went to the other side, Rabbi Meir wrote Akdamus. He sent the parchment over with the man from the 10 tribes, and that is how we have it today. (Both Rabbi Meir and the other man were not permitted to return to their homes because there wasn't an inyan of pikuach Nefesh anymore.) Btw, Rabbi Meir is the rebbe of Rashi, and is quoted by him in several places, as well as by others. So that gives you an idea of when this is purported to have happened.

There is a lot more to the story. But anyway, that part of the story has been passed down through the ages, but since it's not recorded in a reputable source, one doesn't have to believe it. (The Elya Rabba supports the main parts of the story.)

HOWEVER: The existence of the Sambatyon, and the description of it being a river that shoots rocks all week but rests on shabbos, is sourced in many places.

Starting from Gemara Sanhedrin daf 65, amud B, which records various midrashim about this mystical river.
It was given as a proof of the concept of Shabbos to Turnus Rufus harasha.

Also, the idea that the 10 shevatim were brought beyond the Sambatyon is mentioned in Melachim, where it's called Har Gozen, and the Ramban in parashas Ha'azinu identifies it as the Sambatyon River.

The reports of the colorful traveler, Eldad HaDani, who claimed to descend from Dan was believed by many people and even quoted by Tosfos, the Mordechai, the Levush and even the Gr"a.

He is the one that testifies about the existence of the lost Jews beyond the Sambatyon.

All of this info and much more is organized and explained in the 4 part series by R' Glatstien which I linked above.

Cheshire cat

Tue, Jun 01 2021, 7:43 pm

Off topic, but I'm curious. Isn't the Hebrew Israelites an anti semitic group?

I remember that the Jersey City shooters associated with the movement, as did Grafton Thomas, the guy who stabbed Yidden in a monsey shul two chanukahs ago...

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 01 2021, 8:01 pm

Cheshire cat wrote:

Yes they are. It is highly doubtful that they really originated from the original Israelites. According to Wikipedia," The Black Hebrew Israelite movement originated at the end of the 19th century, when Frank Cherry and William Saunders Crowdy both claimed to have received visions that African Americans are descendants of the Hebrews in the Bible;

Re the bolded: The argument made about how we prove that something is true, is if there were many witnesses claiming the same thing. That's a central argument Judaism makes, because its impossible to claim that 600,000 people heard G-d speaking unless its true. Every other religion began with one person and his claims or visions, wo managed to convince other people.

Shadow

Tue, Jun 01 2021, 8:03 pm

Following

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 01 2021, 8:13 pm

giselle wrote:

According to this, does that mean not one person who lives behind the Sambatyon is mechallel Shabbos? That’s pretty impressive. And, one has to wonder, probably not so realistic.

So I don't remeber which of the Rishonim said this, but they said that those who live on the other side are "tzaddikim". They also administer arba misos beis din, since their government is run by Torah.

So if that's true, it does make sense that no one would be mechalel Shabbos and cross the river.

b.chadash

Tue, Jun 01 2021, 8:18 pm

rydys wrote:

There are various opinions on what happened to the "lost tribes". They are not lost to the world or to Yiddishkeit, they are just "lost" to us.

According to Rabbi Akiva, they are lost to Yiddishkeit and do not get olam haba. Others say they will come back before Moshiach's time.
Yet other say that Yirmiyahu brought many of them back so some were lost and some are with us. (This does not in any way mesh with the opinions that say that they are hidden away beyond the Sambatyon. )