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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 10:39 pm
I've posted about this a few times here. I'm curious if there are others who fit in this particular niche.

DH and I both went to regular yeshivish schools in Flatbush, but we grew up in more exposed homes. As a result, we are both somewhere in the middle hashkafically. People are never sure what to make of me when they look at me: my skirts are 4 inches below my knee; my necklines are very high; my sheitels aren't so short, but aren't terribly long, either; I'll wear longer earrings and darker eyeshadow; and I wear more color than your typical girl whose skirts are 4 inches below the knee.

Hashkafically, I'm a mixed bag -- possibly because I'm not sure exactly where I stand. I believe that a husband learning is really the best way to raise a family, but I resent the financial implications of that -- whether parents supporting or the girl killing herself. I'm very anti-programs, as well, which makes it hard to be pro-long term kollel. DH learned for 2 years and is now going to school. Also, I've become more and more disillusioned with rabbonim over the last few years because I find that they just don't care about how their psakim will affect me emotionally, and by extension will affect my whole family.

DH wears the yeshivish garb. I sound very American and don't speak "yeshivish" at all. DH can turn the yeshivish lingo on when he wants, and he sounds a little less educated than I do because of the yeshiva education. But both of us did very well in secular subjects and value secular knowledge. I fight the battle of wanting to read secular literature, and technology is a big struggle for both DH and me. We have our Internet filtered, but we haven't gotten it down to a science yet (hard with a Chromebook).

I don't know, we're a weird mix. Anyone else feel like they'd get along with me?


Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Purple


 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 10:45 pm
Honestly, I consider this one of the major pluses of living in America- the ability to be who are you are and fit into a system without pigeonholing yourself into a specific label or hashkafa. I don't believe in doing things in a black and white, follow the masses kind of way. Be thought out in your yiddishkeit, it's a good thing.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 10:53 pm
I actually feel that a lot of the women in the chofetz chaim yeshiva in Queens are similar to you. Tznius is less about inches here (sheitels, skirts) and more about how you present yourself - obviously while following halacha. I guess you can say the focus is just not on external rules. The only thing different it seems is that we do kill ourselves so our husbands can learn but we have a big support system bh. Also maybe you'd say this is uncommon but I actually think my husbands Rebbeim are very good with working with emotions. This may be because it's a mussar yeshiva and the men are CONSTANTLY finetuning their feelings and emotions on things.
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amother
Mint


 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 10:58 pm
Quote:
I actually feel that a lot of the women in the chofetz chaim yeshiva in Queens are similar to you.

OMG! I was reading the OPs post and thinking she sounds like a chofetz chaim type!
OP, you sound very similar to me and DH. And yes, we feel mostly out of place where we live. We don't fit in with the "Lakewood" crowd but we're looked at as "frummies" by many of the others around us. Sometimes we wonder if we're the only "normal" ones in town LOL
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:00 pm
I actually believe th a t most of my friends and neighbors fall into some of these categories. I'm talking Lakewood-yeshivish.
We all have some level of outside exposure, whether secular library books, filtered Internet, etc.
Nowadays, color is very in, and it's very rare to go to shul and see just black.
I live in a quite yeshivish neighborhood, and shaitels range from on the shoulder until several inches past.
Makeup is the norm.
Most of my friends did kollel between 2-10 years. But then, our husband's range from accountants, Dr's and pas, real estate and nursing home, blue color businesses, rebbes, teachers, and one or two still in kollel. (I'm married over 15 yrs).

And I've mentioned this before. But I have a hard time relating to my Israeli Chareidi family, and they don't relate to me. Because my boys play organized sports but don't watch professional games. We do secular studies. My kids read history or science books for fun, and we go to science museums.

Programs are iffier. I don't believe in setting up your life to be on programs. But I think it's fine to be on programs while hoping to get off. And this is one of my pet peeves. Most Lakewood kids are legally on Medicaid. Because that's how the state arranged it. (NY's Child Health Plus or something.) Practically that means a family of 7: making under 45k- Medicaid. Between 45k-108k, Medicaid with very low copays. Only after 108k is it private insurance. A family making 100k is doing quite reasonable even though the kids are legally on Medicaid.
But that's a whole nother topic.
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:07 pm
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
I actually feel that a lot of the women in the chofetz chaim yeshiva in Queens are similar to you. Tznius is less about inches here (sheitels, skirts) and more about how you present yourself - obviously while following halacha. I guess you can say the focus is just not on external rules. The only thing different it seems is that we do kill ourselves so our husbands can learn but we have a big support system bh. Also maybe you'd say this is uncommon but I actually think my husbands Rebbeim are very good with working with emotions. This may be because it's a mussar yeshiva and the men are CONSTANTLY finetuning their feelings and emotions on things.


Me 3. Bh we're very comfortable in this community. Disagree though re killing yourself for dh to learn. There are those, for sure, but many working guys here too who still feel part of the CC community.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:14 pm
amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:
Me 3. Bh we're very comfortable in this community. Disagree though re killing yourself for dh to learn. There are those, for sure, but many working guys here too who still feel part of the CC community.


Oh for sure - didn't mean to exclude them. But as a hashkafah there is an emphasis for the wives to be bringing in the money which has many of us working longer hours or more demanding jobs than our Lakewood friends.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:22 pm
I was also thinking of Chofetz Chaim. There's more of an emphasis on honesty, not being on programs - or maybe its just the people I know.

As for Rabbanim - I've said this before and I'll say it again - not every Rav is an expert on everything. Finding the right Rav to ask your shaylos to is extremely important. A Rav is not G-d and is not a navi either.

For women's health issues, for example, I know Rabbi Gissinger in Lakewood is extremely knowledgeable and helpful - not every Rav is. Like Rabbi Avigdor Miller used to say - it's not a question of lomdus, it's a question of knowledge. Certain questions really need the big guns.
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Boca00




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:24 pm
We are part of a NJ kollel, not chofetz chaim, but our Rosh Yeshiva is also very understanding of emotions and will often ask "what does your wife think?" When we asked him about sleep training, he told us "as long as your wife feels is ok" (but added 10 min is too long). Post-baby, he tells kollel guys that "if your wife needs you, go home".

He does not allow his kollel guys to take government programs with the recent exception of healthcare.

We girls wear color, dont talk "yeshivish" and have filtered internet. Yes, we work, but the kollel pays and also provides an apartment. The schedule allows the kollel guys to be around carpool and meal times. I actually think when my husband goes out to work it will be much more difficult for me.

So yeah... I think we could get along.
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amother
Lime


 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:26 pm
I live in Lakewood and am a lot like you. Only I don't fight the battle of secular literature - I read it openly. My shaitel may be a bit longer than some others, though nothing too crazy, and we allow our kids to watch age-appropriate secular movies. I think there are way more people like us than you realize Tongue Out
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:33 pm
I can relate although I lean more heimish than yeshivish. I did grow up with secular literature and movies, though I’ve limited a lot as an adult. Basically most of my friends don’t follow the stereotypes you read here. We’re just normal Smile
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amother
OP


 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:38 pm
It's interesting that people are mentioning Chofetz Chaim. I used to think that I'd end up marrying a Chofetz Chaim boy. However, after I got married, my brother who learns in Chofetz Chaim told me that there was no one there whom he would have seen me with. The one exception was a boy whom I dated four times. Smile But DH learned in Mir, which isn't really our type. He probably left learning earlier than he would have had he been in a yeshiva that was more his style.

I know that it's kind of nice to be able to fit in to a system in America, but DH and I are struggling to find our niche. That might just be because we live in Flatbush.

(As an aside, to the poster who said that under $108K is still Medicaid-eligible, how is a family of more than 4 people doing reasonably with that kind of income? After paying tuitions, food, Shabbos and yom tov, babysitting, rent or mortgage, millions of other expenses... ??)

Mommyg8 - you're 100% right. The problem is that according to the mainstream yeshivish hashkafa, a Rav is daas Torah and you need to follow what he tells you, and since you can't go Rav shopping, you need to pick a Rav and stick with him. Uh uh.

I am fighting the secular culture battle because I don't like the exposure with which I was raised, but at the same time it's harder for me to stay away than for my peers who didn't grow up with it. There's just very little quality Jewish writing; I've read the threads about good Jewish books, and none of them compare to an average secular novel. There's just so much schmutz in that stuff that it's impossible. I miss the old FBI thrillers, though...


Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:48 pm
smileforamile wrote:


Mommyg8 - you're 100% right. The problem is that according to the mainstream yeshivish hashkafa, a Rav is daas Torah and you need to follow what he tells you, and since you can't go Rav shopping, you need to pick a Rav and stick with him. Uh uh.

I am fighting the secular culture battle because I don't like the exposure with which I was raised, but at the same time it's harder for me to stay away than for my peers who didn't grow up with it. There's just very little quality Jewish writing; I've read the threads about good Jewish books, and none of them compare to an average secular novel. There's just so much schmutz in that stuff that it's impossible. I miss the old FBI thrillers, though...


Re the bolded - I hear this a lot from the younger generation, and my husband and I discuss it often - we are both so puzzled by this. Where does this come from? How does it even make sense?

According to what you are saying, my husband and I are both NOT mainstream yeshivish hashkafa.... the weird thing is that we used to be - what happened to the world around us?

Logically, what you're saying doesn't even make sense, so how can it be mainstream yeshivish hashkafa?

As for secular literature - there is way more bad books than good books, but because you have so much to choose from, you automatically have a lot more good books - if I'm making sense because I'm tired. Also the frum books are very limited in their topics... I struggle with this as well.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:58 pm
Me. (But you know that already 😜)
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:03 am
Mommyg8 wrote:
Re the bolded - I hear this a lot from the younger generation, and my husband and I discuss it often - we are both so puzzled by this. Where does this come from? How does it even make sense?

According to what you are saying, my husband and I are both NOT mainstream yeshivish hashkafa.... the weird thing is that we used to be - what happened to the world around us?

Logically, what you're saying doesn't even make sense, so how can it be mainstream yeshivish hashkafa?

As for secular literature - there is way more bad books than good books, but because you have so much to choose from, you automatically have a lot more good books - if I'm making sense because I'm tired. Also the frum books are very limited in their topics... I struggle with this as well.


We've discussed this in pm before. It makes absolutely no sense. However, ask any Bais Yaakov high school or seminary teacher -- that's what they'll tell you. I can show you my seminary notes. I was livid.

I have a friend whose husband did shimush for paskening niddah shailos. He knows that the posek in his yeshiva is super machmir, but he uses him anyway. So his wife never gets to the mikvah before day 14-15 of her cycle. He knows that it's crazy, he knows that this is not the way it's meant to be with TH, but that's what yeshivish people do -- they follow their yeshiva's posek.

I hear what you're saying about secular literature. However, 43/100 is a much better ratio than 1/58, even though there are just as many bad books in both groups. Yes, there are much more topics allowed in secular literature, which makes them more interesting.


Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:10 am
smileforamile wrote:
We've discussed this in pm before. It makes absolutely no sense. However, ask any Bais Yaakov high school or seminary teacher -- that's what they'll tell you. I can show you my seminary notes. I was livid.

I have a friend whose husband did shimush for paskening niddah shailos. He knows that the posek in his yeshiva is super machmir, but he uses him anyway. So his wife never gets to the mikvah before day 14-15 of her cycle. He knows that it's crazy, he knows that this is not the way it's meant to be with TH, but that's what yeshivish people do -- they follow their yeshiva's posek.

I hear what you're saying about secular literature. However, 43/100 is a much better ratio than 1/58, even though there are just as many bad books in both groups. Yes, there are much more topics allowed in secular literature, which makes them more interesting.


This story is real? I truly hope you are making this up. We often get an answer from a Rav - I can't pasken on this, ask someone else. We all know what that means. If this Rav can't do that, I'm sorry but he has a problem.

I know we discussed this via PM, but I'm putting this on the public board in case someone here has a clue. Honestly, totally doesn't even make sense.

About books - I think the ratio is more like 43/1000 but could be I'm just picky.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:15 am
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
I actually feel that a lot of the women in the chofetz chaim yeshiva in Queens are similar to you... The only thing different it seems is that we do kill ourselves so our husbands can learn but we have a big support system bh.


Off topic, but something I’ve been wondering about, and that I can’t ask any CC women in real life... what percentage of CC kollel families are somewhat financially comfortable? As in, not living paycheck to paycheck, can afford to rent a 2 bedroom apartment, have money to save every month/year, etc. Many CC women make it sound like they are barely making ends meet, but that can’t be true for everyone? There must be some people who can afford all of their expenses and have money left over - how many? Is it a minority or perhaps even a silent majority?
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 12:21 am
smileforamile wrote:
We've discussed this in pm before. It makes absolutely no sense. However, ask any Bais Yaakov high school or seminary teacher -- that's what they'll tell you. I can show you my seminary notes. I was livid.

I have a friend whose husband did shimush for paskening niddah shailos. He knows that the posek in his yeshiva is super machmir, but he uses him anyway. So his wife never gets to the mikvah before day 14-15 of her cycle. He knows that it's crazy, he knows that this is not the way it's meant to be with TH, but that's what yeshivish people do -- they follow their yeshiva's posek.

I hear what you're saying about secular literature. However, 43/100 is a much better ratio than 1/58, even though there are just as many bad books in both groups. Yes, there are much more topics allowed in secular literature, which makes them more interesting.

Can the wife not say: "I'm sorry dear, but it's time to ask someone else?" Unless these shaylos truly aren't good. I can't remember the last time I went before day 14. Its often way past that bec. of my own periods/issues. Nothing to do with shaylos. Iput the onus on the couple here to find an alternative that works for them.
I'm super duper RW, but my reality is so not like what your friends has. DH would totally pasken shaylos on his own if he had shimush. He has extensive experience in other areas and does a ton of research where necessary so that we can find out own route where we feel comfortable.
We also have different a different rav for different areas in our lives. Not all rabbanim are experts/equal in all areas. That's a given. Our rav who does shaylos is a real expert in this area, but not in kashrus or hilchos Shabbos, for ex.
When I have a shayla, I use a rav who I know is very patient and a good listener bec. I like to know that I got the full question out, with all the details that may or may not be relevant. DH asks our shaylos to a different rav who is quick and sharp like himself.
Once I asked a rav and got a psak, I don't go shopping for a different psak (unless the rav tells me to), but asking different rabbanim for different areas is SMART; not wrong. Get your expert. Just like I don't ask my pediatrician about my gyn issues.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 7:40 am
Dh and I fit your criteria too Smile
We also feel a bit like outsiders- too frum for the cooler, younger crowd (our age), but too cool for the typical yeshivish crowd. I noticed I do very well socially with people who are from out of the tri state area, where there aren't such defined boundaries and people are generally a great, wonderful mix.
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thunderstorm




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 7:49 am
OP, I'd say I'm very similar but more to the heimish Chasidish end of it as opposed to Yeshivish. But the feeling is mutual and can make you feel like you don't have an identity.
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