I'm Frummer than your Frum

singleagain

Wed, May 22 2019, 2:07 am

yerushamama wrote:

As for the comment "I thought this website was for frum women?" - I have seen it where a person posts something that is clearly against halacha - iow, this is not an appropriate comment on a frum site.

So, if someone says something completely against halacha maybe phrase it as "as I understand/if I remember correctly, the halacha actually says xyz. And here is the source"

We are all human, and sometimes a thing is misremembered or mixed up. Or maybe the sentence was simply unclear bc of a typo or misspelling.

amother

Cerise

Wed, May 22 2019, 5:32 am

amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:

This exactly.
It's one thing to struggle with a mitzvah. There's no shame in saying "I'm not there yet" or "I'm not ready to take it upon myself to do X"
HOWEVER twisting halacha to make a miniskirt kosher or early abortion "no big deal" is a lie and needs to be called out. The more we hear such skewed views, the more normalized they become. And that's a problem.

I second this and also mother Seashell.
The Halacha is perfectly clear. To try to 'letaher et hasheretz' and 'shechting a pig' comes to my mind. A pig with lipstick is still a pig.
From someone who has had struggles with tzniout and in my mind have burnt Rav Falk's book on tzniout countless times, almost swearing not to read it again. But I craved for truth. Truth is not always pleasant. Once truth is twisted it becomes a lie. Make no mistake.

amother

Cerise

Wed, May 22 2019, 6:27 am

The whole thread with short skirts actually hit me today in the face. It hurt and it sobered me up. It was a healthy slap. Asked myself 'some struggle with tzniout. What is my personal struggle? I always knew it deep down but made all kinds of excuses. Prayer. Prayed shacharis on a weekday which I hadn't done for too long time.

paperflowers

Wed, May 22 2019, 6:42 am

singleagain wrote:

OP I love what you said.. and just to add.. something I've noticed recently is the phrase:

"I thought this website was for frum women?"

That is one of the most insulting questions, exactly got the reasons you said.

Can we just stop asking that question?

If you have a valid reason to suspect that bring it up with the mods/Yael... Don't potentially embarrass someone

Yes. I’ve seen it in response to philosophical questions. It reminds me of all those horror stories of teachers telling students they are apikorsim because they asked questions about emuna. If people can’t discuss when they have questions or doubts, they disengage instead of learning more.

I have trouble with some philosophical ideas in Judaism. I really do. It doesn’t mean I don’t believe, just that I don’t understand how to reconcile certain things. And I appreciate a forum where I can learn more without being told I don’t belong on a cite for frum women.

yerushamama

Wed, May 22 2019, 7:43 am

"It reminds me of all those horror stories of teachers telling students they are apikorsim because they asked questions about emuna. If people can’t discuss when they have questions or doubts, they disengage instead of learning more."

A very smart teacher told me that certain questions, while not problematic when asked one on one of a mentor, teacher, or Rav, are considered apikorsus when asked in public since often the reason is to shock people and introduce doubt. This is a semi-public forum, and we all need to keep that in mind. It is not appropriate to denigrate anyone, especially Rabbanim, or to bring things up that should not be spoken about in public (with some obvious exceptions).

amother

Seashell

Wed, May 22 2019, 7:53 am

singleagain wrote:

Especially if the people that are "posing the question" know deep down that what they're doing is wrong - then any response that does not seem 100% encouraging and positive feels to them like a judgemental and personal attack

amother

Seashell

Wed, May 22 2019, 7:57 am

yerushamama wrote:

"
A very smart teacher told me that certain questions, while not problematic when asked one on one of a mentor, teacher, or Rav, are considered apikorsus when asked in public since often the reason is to shock people and introduce doubt. This is a semi-public forum, and we all need to keep that in mind. It is not appropriate to denigrate anyone, especially Rabbanim, or to bring things up that should not be spoken about in public (with some obvious exceptions).

Great point. This a forum for frum women. While we have to be respectful of different people's customs or level of yiddishkeit, we still have to maintain the truth of the torah.
Even minhagim are considered sacred and as much as it doesn't make sense to a person - it is not so simple to just chuck it or publicly denounce it.

southernbubby

Wed, May 22 2019, 9:03 am

yerushamama wrote:

Wow, I learned something new! I wish that all of those who left the derech due to unanswered questions would have been given the opportunity to ask in private.

Since this site doesn't have a Rabbi that can clarify halacha, when questions are raised, people should not use the information here to posken, anymore than they should rely on the site for medical advice instead of seeing the doctor.

I know a Chassidishe woman who didn't want to shave her hair after the wedding and she went privately to her Rebbe and was told that she didn't have to do that. This was her private psak because she felt like she would be traumatized by shaving. Sometimes these rabbonim can be quite understanding and human and should be given the chance to guide. We also need to realize when we see someone doing something "wrong", it may actually be under the guidance of a Rav.

There are probably rabbonim who counsel parents not to create more teenage rebellion by cracking down on tznius standards. I see plenty of people who have to keep quiet about what their daughters wear because nagging just pushes them further away.

thunderstorm

Wed, May 22 2019, 9:13 am

I agree with the OP. And I'd like to point out that when women call out others here in the "name of Halacha" and feel that it's their obligation to keep this site a frum site etc. they may actually be causing others to be turned off from keeping Halacha properly. I have been personally judged and attacked and it actually makes me question those that call themselves "frum"...because I know that it says "Al tadin es chavercha ad shetagia bimkomo"....yet they give themselves a heter to bash and to judge and I bet you they didn't ask their Rav first if that is halachically allowed.
So when someone's behavior is not up to your level of frumkeit, be happy you have reached farther everyone is working on their Yiddishkeit at their own pace and they don't need to constantly be put down by others that have already reached their goals. Nobody is perfect and that's why we were put on this earth. To work on ourselves and when we finally reach our potential and fulfill it we will be removed from this earth to Olam haba. I am not there yet and neither is anyone else . So please stop criticizing , hurting and possibly destroying another person's inner soul because you think you are better.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 22 2019, 9:14 am

I'm going to read the thread later, just skimmed the OP. I'm going to take myself out of the running with my immediate reactions.
The short skirt thread title reminded me of the old Nair commercial, Who wears short shorts.
And this thread title reminds me of the old Ken-L Ration commercial, My dog's ~~frummer~~ better than your dog.

amother

Wed, May 22 2019, 9:18 am

thunderstorm wrote:

Thank you. I like you.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 22 2019, 10:05 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

We all struggle with one thing or another and we should support each other and help each other. But when people arrogantly devalue and demean what was held dear for generations based on personal frustration and what they think is true - then they need to be told off.

And when we do tell off, we have to do it with a lot of forethought. We don't have to jump to kana'I mode. And maybe telling off isn't what's required, but respectfully and honestly continuing the discussion.

If tochacha is ever necessary it has to be done as the Torah requires: Amisecha, we have to make the other person feel like a friend, not embarrassed or condescended to. And we must always remember that divrei chachamim b'nachas nishma'im. Remember this and you can even get away with going amother Wink

(Don't take that to mean I don't think your post has value. It does.)

PinkFridge

Wed, May 22 2019, 10:11 am

yerushamama wrote:

How is a teenager supposed to know that? And not all of us might get it either.
I can only hope that anyone who schools someone else about this, whether a h.s. teacher or imamother friend, does that in a way that will not discourage further questions, and that doesn't destroy a person's inner soul.

(Edited to change my original last phrase, "that only builds a person up." Thunderstorm, I like that!)

yerushamama

Wed, May 22 2019, 10:22 am

Maybe we, as their mothers, can try to remember to tell them this from a young age, and help them find the right people to ask. Finding the right person isn't easy. I have some things I struggle with bec there doesn't seem to be anyone in my community I can ask, but I have find a lot of good points to ponder and even direction on how better to word my questions on sites like this one!

shabbatiscoming

Wed, May 22 2019, 10:39 am

Also, know that not all frum women keep every halacha the same way as the next person. And jst because you dont keep the halacha the same way the next lady keeps that same halacha, does not mean that one of you is on a higher level than the other. It just means you are both in different places, thats all.

I keep tzniut differently than a charedi woman, but I keep it how I learned tzniut to be ok. Another woman may think the way I dress is terrible and half naked.

Everyone does what they know to be correct, for themselves.

Life is not black and white. There are many many many many shades of gray, in every part of life.

southernbubby

Wed, May 22 2019, 10:58 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I moved here from a neighborhood where I was probably considered to be one of the most frum to a neighborhood where I may be considered one of the least because I drive and have a smart phone.
The basement tenants are Neturei Karta and although they have an extreme view of tznius, I'm not sure that, in and of itself, makes them more frum.
Being frum is obviously a matter of degree but we hope that Hashem values every person's mitzvahs even if the person is not frum or doesn't self identify as frum.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 22 2019, 11:08 am

yerushamama wrote:

Like a teacher?
And they should be second guessing every question, whether it's appropriate for the class or not, especially when the teacher is so much more accessible during class and it might be helpful to understand the day's class?

amother

Apricot

Wed, May 22 2019, 11:12 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Just answering to "how is a teenager supposed to know that"
When I was in high school I had a couple of teachers tell me to come over to them after class to ask my questions as there is no need for the entire class who wasn't questioning to have to hear that.
I must admit that once I was told that, I was totally fine not having my questions answered. I wasn't interested in awkward teacher talk after class when I could be having fun.