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Enough kids for you!
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mig100




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:16 pm
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
Ok so other than the OBVIOUS joke, kindly point me to some of the "million" threads where literally women are asking for activity ideas and they are told to go on BC as a response. So now it's both you and amother teal making this claim.

Waiting. Waiting Waiting


There r plenty of them. Plenty.
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Mon, May 20 2019, 11:17 pm
mig100 wrote:
There r plenty of them. Plenty.


Millions Tongue Out
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 8:12 am
mig100 wrote:
There r plenty of them. Plenty.


Can you show me like, one? Remember; you are all claiming there are "millions" of threads where women ask for activity ideas and are told to go on BC as a response. I'd love to see a couple of examples.

Still waiting.
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mig100




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 9:30 am
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
Can you show me like, one? Remember; you are all claiming there are "millions" of threads where women ask for activity ideas and are told to go on BC as a response. I'd love to see a couple of examples.

Still waiting.


I'm not thew one u were quoting but sure I can show u when I have a chance to search.

U can look at my posting history. I usually commented about how inappropriate that is until I realized I was just going to be bashed and accused of claiming things I didn't say by saying something so unpopular so there was no point.

I'll look through my history and show u when I have chance
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mig100




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 10:02 am
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
Can you show me like, one? Remember; you are all claiming there are "millions" of threads where women ask for activity ideas and are told to go on BC as a response. I'd love to see a couple of examples.

Still waiting.


I definitely could show you many such threads when I have time to search..

im just thinking what discussion that will turn into. it will probably go downhill really quickly

those who responded to take bc- (to the poster that posted she was overwhlemed with a few little kids and wanted some advice on how to keep them busy and calm-) will start defending themselves and explaining how they only wrote such a thing since the poster really seemed to not be coping- then it will turn into a whole discussion about whether they are dysfunctional or just going through a normal difficult baby/ toddler stage

there are real people behind each of these threads. I dont think we need to start tearing apart each thread and discussing who is coping and who is dysfunctional and who should be told rigthfully to go on bc and who shoult be.

I think everyone who has been on ima long enough knows what I mean. linking old threads here and starting a discussion here analyzing each one and each response -is not something I want to be responsible for

back to work for me- have a good day.
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mig100




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 4:35 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
Everybody projects their own issues onto other people. We can't help it. Our lives are the only lens we have, and it takes a concerted effort to work on seeing things through the eyes of someone else.

When someone says "You've had enough already", what they are saying is "I feel too overwhelmed just thinking about it, and it stresses me out to imagine being in your place."

When someone says "Isn't it time you try for another?", what they are saying is "I wish I could have more children, and somehow I will feel fulfilled when you have the child because I suggested it." OR, they are saying "Misery loves company. I can't handle my many children, and I want you to feel just as overwhelmed as I do."

So whenever someone says something clueless, remember that they are giving you a lot of information on their "personal lens", and that it has next to nothing to do with you. 99 times out of 100, we are just the mirror to the other person's issues.

It took me many, many years to figure that out, but once I realized that it was true I have become a much happier person. I feel very confident in my decisions, and don't let random, unsolicited opinions upset me.


ff- I think you are spot on. I especially notice this on imamohter- ive definitey done it too. everyone responds to a situation based on very little info and often based on their own experiences.

if you realize this and see everything through this lens- people really loose their ability to hurt you as much.
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Tue, May 21 2019, 7:06 pm
I think people project their own feelings when they say enough no more kids they can be thinking I can’t have kids now for whatever reason, it’s hurting me to see you pregnant every day.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 12:16 pm
I have only a few kids, all thje same gender. My youngest is 9 and I've been trying for 6 years. Way too often, I get "oh you didn't want any more?"
what are you supposed to answer?
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mig100




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 12:31 pm
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
I have only a few kids, all thje same gender. My youngest is 9 and I've been trying for 6 years. Way too often, I get "oh you didn't want any more?"
what are you supposed to answer?


Give them a real nasty look and make some sort of sharp line to put them in their place.

Ugggggh. People can be so in appropiate??

Banging head Banging head Banging head Banging head
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amother
Salmon


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 12:45 pm
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
I have only a few kids, all thje same gender. My youngest is 9 and I've been trying for 6 years. Way too often, I get "oh you didn't want any more?"
what are you supposed to answer?

We are all different but If I was in your shoes the reply would be "We have been trying and are trying BUT IT DOESN'T WORK!!" No, I don't want your advice or tips or segulahs or making me feel nebbech or 'worrying' about me. But you can pray for me. That's all. End on conversation.
I read in an article about a woman at a mixed non-Jewish wedding. Married a few years and got the same question and hints from family and guests "isn't it time for children?". She was asked numerous times at the wedding and in anger and frustration screamed out loudly "We are trying but it does not work!!" Exploding anger
The silence. You could hear a pin drop. From that moment nobody asked anything.
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amother
Teal


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 2:24 pm
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
Can you show me like, one? Remember; you are all claiming there are "millions" of threads where women ask for activity ideas and are told to go on BC as a response. I'd love to see a couple of examples.

Still waiting.


I posted a while back asking for advice regarding Shalom bayis and when the fact that I have a bunch of closely spaced kids came up, the responses were basically that if you choose not to use BC then you must not value your marriage and will never have a strong one. I'm not comfortable linking it here but that's what happened to me
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SacN




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 2:48 pm
Quote:
I think if the gov't wants to lower the Arab demographic, it should invest a lot in women's educations and careers. Usually brings birth rate down.


It should really invest in the Arab demographic anyway. Education and careers tend to keep extremists at bay as well.

Also, something like 30% of Israeli first graders this year are charedi. Bought time we invested there too.

Just saying, I get assumed to have many children frequently. I've been asked if people in "my community" judge me for having so few.
I always want to scream--no, YOU are judging me!
I have two well loved nissim.
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mig100




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 4:45 pm
amother [ Teal ] wrote:
I posted a while back asking for advice regarding Shalom bayis and when the fact that I have a bunch of closely spaced kids came up, the responses were basically that if you choose not to use BC then you must not value your marriage and will never have a strong one. I'm not comfortable linking it here but that's what happened to me


I've seen many such threads unfortunately.

I'm not either comfortable linking them.

There r lots of them on ima. I find it pretty sickening to give such advice.

What r we ? God ? Deciding who should be born and when?

That's a highhly personal decision between husband wife and perhaps and a rav only. Not one open to public opinion imvho
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amother
Pink


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 4:46 pm
amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:
It's interesting that it seems to have been unheard of, and yet there were those people who knew about BC heterim and did get them.

My mother had a large family (2 digits) and totally did not cope. I had a difficult childhood, some of us were emotionally and physically abused, and I was very, very parentified. And yet she totally believed BC was assur, but really because that's what she wanted to hear. My father tried to tell her, but she wouldn't hear him, wouldn't go speak to a Rav with him.

A close family friend of ours used BC after a number of children. Her husband got a psak from R' Yaakov Kaminetsky for this (and my mother knew about this, and refused to do same). This man asked R' Yaakov why there is so much dysfunction and people are having large families, not coping, and still not using BC. He answered "veil zei fregen nisht" (because they don't ask). I heard this story myself, from this woman. First-hand.

I think it's a good thing that info about BC heterim is more widespread today, and perhaps there are more healthy families as a result, or at least, maybe somewhere a little girl is being spared from being overwhelmed from running the household at an age that is far too young, because her mother is too depressed to do her job....

I will make sure my children know that BC heterim exist before they get married.


Are you my sister?
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mig100




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 4:46 pm
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
I have only a few kids, all thje same gender. My youngest is 9 and I've been trying for 6 years. Way too often, I get "oh you didn't want any more?"
what are you supposed to answer?


Actually I have. Better idea- send those nosy nasty people to me. I'll put them in their place. Punch Punch
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 5:00 pm
amother [ Teal ] wrote:
I posted a while back asking for advice regarding Shalom bayis and when the fact that I have a bunch of closely spaced kids came up, the responses were basically that if you choose not to use BC then you must not value your marriage and will never have a strong one. I'm not comfortable linking it here but that's what happened to me


A woman having SB problems with a bunch of closely spaced little kids IS NOT AT ALL THE SAME THING as a women ASKING FOR SUMMER TIME ACTIVITIES, which is what has been repeatedly been claimed in this thread as being on the receiving end of BC advice. And it is this that I asked for examples. I didn't get any, but assured there were "millions." And I am STILL WAITING!

At any rate, to respond to your point here, again, there are many women who simply do.not.know. that BC is an option. They think it's for "g0yim" or at the very least, very very modern MO, like the jean-wearing type. THEY NEED TO KNOW THE OPTION IS OUT THERE and I think it's totally fine to bring it up in a case where a women needs a lot of help. Remember, there are people here on this site that are literally not coping. And I mean that literally. I would rather err on the side of over-suggesting it to the people like you who know it's an option than stand idly by while a fellow Jewish mother is in crises and not give her the help she needs.
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amother
Pink


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 5:13 pm
amother [ Pink ] wrote:
Are you my sister?

Probably not.
I don't know the story af R' Yaakov :
But it describes my family well.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 6:56 pm
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
I have actually never seen that, and I'm here pretty often. I see people mention BC to women who are in clearly dysfunctional relationships and not coping. I would love for you to link to such a thread, where moms ask for activity suggestions and BC is suggested as a response.

As to amother tangerine, there are women here in serious shape and at the end of their ropes. A world where BC! is suggested too often in the hopes it reaches these women in desperate straits is preferable, in my mind, to a world where it's not suggested at all to women like you, who deep down, are really managing for the most part.

(PS- anyone remember the thread of a giyores with an advanced degree who was so destitute she was considering panhandling and her DH refused to work because of his misplaced concerns over stealing from his employer? Or a poster who is unable or unwilling to protect her children from a MIL who literally physically abuses them and a DH who protects, not the kids, but his mother? Amother tangerine, your concern should not be that people like you shouldn't hear BC suggestions. It should be that people in desperate need of help DO get to hear those suggestions).


You are referring to more recent threads. When I joined over a decade ago, there were very vocal pro BC under any circumstances - FS, for example, used to say that there was no halachic problem at all ever, as long as the woman kept it to herself, because it's not her mitzvah any way. As a young mom from a middle of the road somewhat sheltered world, I almost bought her baloney. And I'm not a girl who is easily influenced. I've always been a deep thinker. She sounded so credible and had "sources" to back up her incredible vocabulary. I'm not trying to judge her, just emphasizing the power of influencers.

BH I had the guts to discuss at length with DH and our Rav, and was shown openly that these ideas are very against halacha according to major poskim of my particular hashkafa. At some point we (DH and I, our personal psak) do use BC, when I honestly feel like I cannot manage. But I am careful to take the decision seriously without letting other's opinions cloud my thinking. And I always discuss with daas Torah. It is dinei nefashos on every level - the mom's, the dad's, the living children, and the future ones. Definitely not something to be taken lightly or hocked about with friends, in my opinion. It's definitely not something I should have let random internet strangers help me decide - directly or indirectly (via slow seepage of other's opinions in my mind.)

I've used both long and short term BC a small number of times, and I am totally OK with it because I am doing my absolute best given the life and strengths and weaknesses Hashem gave ME personally.

Imamother has slowly shifted since then, as more RW women began becoming more and more involved in internet usage. So now I mostly see it mentioned in more extreme situations.

Just weighing in. Feel free to disagree.
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SuperWify




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 7:28 pm
amother [ Olive ] wrote:
You are referring to more recent threads. When I joined over a decade ago, there were very vocal pro BC under any circumstances - FS, for example, used to say that there was no halachic problem at all ever, as long as the woman kept it to herself, because it's not her mitzvah any way. As a young mom from a middle of the road somewhat sheltered world, I almost bought her baloney. And I'm not a girl who is easily influenced. I've always been a deep thinker. She sounded so credible and had "sources" to back up her incredible vocabulary. I'm not trying to judge her, just emphasizing the power of influencers.

BH I had the guts to discuss at length with DH and our Rav, and was shown openly that these ideas are very against halacha according to major poskim of my particular hashkafa. At some point we (DH and I, our personal psak) do use BC, when I honestly feel like I cannot manage. But I am careful to take the decision seriously without letting other's opinions cloud my thinking. And I always discuss with daas Torah. It is dinei nefashos on every level - the mom's, the dad's, the living children, and the future ones. Definitely not something to be taken lightly or hocked about with friends, in my opinion. It's definitely not something I should have let random internet strangers help me decide - directly or indirectly (via slow seepage of other's opinions in my mind.)

I've used both long and short term BC a small number of times, and I am totally OK with it because I am doing my absolute best given the life and strengths and weaknesses Hashem gave ME personally.

Imamother has slowly shifted since then, as more RW women began becoming more and more involved in internet usage. So now I mostly see it mentioned in more extreme situations.

Just weighing in. Feel free to disagree.


Im sorry but a woman does not need a heter for BC.

Her DH needs it.

I honestly don’t understand the women that have back to back pregnancies because BC is not an “ideal”. (Like my mom and many others.) it feels cruel to make a person
always TTC, pregnant, or nursing (to avoid pregnancy) unless there are “extenuating circumstances”.

I look up to you that you can handle so many kids, pregnancies, and newborns.

Truly.

But please don’t continue to spread the lies that bc is only permitted when absolutely necessary. There are many, many rabbanim that are very understanding of the modern day frum woman and would give at least 6 months- 2 years after a baby is born- no questions asked. More then that they might ask questions, true, but if the situation is explained properly, a heter should be given.
No woman should have to beg to be allowed to not have a baby.
No woman should believe that bc is assur.

Edited for spelling
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amother
Olive


 

Post Wed, May 22 2019, 9:19 pm
SuperWify wrote:


But please don’t continue to spread the lies that bc is only permitted when absolutely necessary. There are many, many rabbanim that are very understanding of the modern day frum woman and would give at least 6 months- 2 years after a baby is born- no questions asked. More then that they might ask questions, true, but if the situation is explained properly, a heter should be given.
No woman should have to beg to be allowed to not have a baby.
No woman should believe that bc is assur.

Edited for spelling


Respectfully, there certainly are poskim who hold this way. There also are others who don't. I don't believe it's fair to call it a lie when R' Moshe Feinstein and others absolutely paskened in this manner.

The real question among poskim in the RW world is how to define "absolutely neccessary." Many poskim today agree that 6m to 2 years IS absolutely necessary for most families in today's generation where women don't neccessarily nurse clean or nurse at all or get pregnant anyhow.

Others feel that "absolutely necessary" truly means cases of possible health issues or dysfuction.

And there's a range in between as well.

Anyone in the Chassidish or RW Litvish world who choose to take halacha seriously fall somewhere in this range.

We women do understandably get very emotional about this topic. But to say BC is totally muttar in all circumstances is most certainly not the emes for this particular community.

I'm saying this as a woman who spaces her kids because I cannot handle one every year! According to my Rav, that makes BC absolutely neccessary and a total lechatchila FOR ME.
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