S/o Galus | Imamother

chicco

Thu, May 23 2019, 1:41 pm

gingertop wrote:

I just put the words from dayeinu there. I mean it the same way you mean it. Gratitude for EY and a prayer for future, better things. From your post, it seems that we agree 100%. What did you think I was trying to say?

I thought you were proving it is ok to be fine with having "just EY." Implying we don't need a 3rd BHMK and that we are "good."

gingertop

Thu, May 23 2019, 1:51 pm

chicco wrote:

I thought you were proving it is ok to be fine with having "just EY." Implying we don't need a 3rd BHMK and that we are "good."

No. I think we're better off now than without EY but still have a way to go.

No one thinks that the geulah is complete. A tiny minority think that EY is not something to thank Hashem for, that the secular govt invalidates the entire existence of a Jewish land.

Most frum people are where we both are- happy to have EY, hoping for more of Hashem's presence.

I still think that we are less in galus here. I may have difficulty getting my grocery to deliver, but I live in a Jewish land, in Yerushalayim, by definition less "exile" or "diaspora" or "dispersion" and even less "hester panim". Less galus, in other words. More geula, less galus. Not there yet. But quantitatively more.

someone

Thu, May 23 2019, 1:57 pm

I think that no one is saying that this is the geulah shleima. Of course it's not, we still have a way to go. Chazal already provided us with a definition of the period we live in - ikvata d'meshicha. the footsteps of mashiach. Yes, on the one hand it's not the final geulah, so we can define it as still being in galut. On the other hand, its the beginning of the end. When people say that we are still in golus they seem to be saying that there is no difference between the period we live in today and 200 hundred years ago. I think that is what people disagreed with. And with the statement that regardless of where you live it's still galut. Yes, also those of us who are in Eretz Yisrael are still in galut because mashiach isn't here yet. But we see his footsteps clearly every day in our daily lives.

PinkFridge

Thu, May 23 2019, 3:46 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I'll bite. Here is what's wrong with the "we're still in galus" attitude:

1. Massive lack of gratitude. Hashem restored sovereignty to the Jewish people in Israel. Jews are coming from the four corners of the earth. The desert is blooming. Greater numbers of Jews are learning Torah than ever before. There's a Jewish army defending our people. Children play in the streets of Yerushalayim, and old people lean on canes.
If you believe that Hashem is involved in how the world is run, you need to see that He has performed miracles and is fulfilling many of the promises the neviim foresaw.

2. The (unsourced) idea that geula is instant and not a process. Yehoshua led the Jews into Israel and it took over 400 years until the Mikdash was built. We're in the midst of a process. We can't be sure it will succeed or how long it will take, but can you really say that the state of the Jewish people is the same as it was a hundred years ago?

I assume you say hallel with a bracha on Channukah. Why? The Jews were only independent for some 200 years. The later Chasmonean kings persecuted talmidei chachamim. (I'm not talking about cutting kollel stipends, I'm talking about hunting them down and killing them.) True, there was a mikdash, but the kehuna was beyond corrupt. And yet Chazal thought this was worthy of hallel. Because we have to thank Hashem for partial redemption too.

(I corrected some typos)

There is no question that we have to acknowledge the great bracha of access to EY now. (Whether we acknowledge with Hallel, with or without a bracha is an entirely different conversation.) I've heard, even from people who won't say this is then beginning of geulah in the () sense that this could be the nevuah of ingathering coming true, that it is a process as per your second point.

But we still must be in pain that we are in galus spiritually even if not physically. We are still too distracted by outside things, we still have war - great! We have an army. That's building hospitals instead of repairing the bridge - and all sorts of awful things, we still do not have the Bais Hamikdash and authentic unified leadership as we will with melech haMoshiach...of course we're still in galus.

PinkFridge

Thu, May 23 2019, 3:53 pm

And I'm going to do this in a separate post.
Of course we need an army. And if you want to know how I feel about every single soldier,

https://hamodia.com/2018/12/25.....-ztl/

https://blogs.timesofisrael.co.....-obm/

Read them. The next time I come on I'll tell you an amazing story that was written up in Yated.

amother

Blue

Fri, May 24 2019, 9:35 am

Please don't forget that while we are in galus, so is the shechina.
Just imagine Hashems pain when he sees a country like Israel where so many Jews are totally not religious and unaware...
Having a "Jewish State" where so many Jews are not frum is the farthest thing from geula.

essie14

Fri, May 24 2019, 10:54 am

Amethyst said it beautifully.
We believe the state of Israel is ראשית צמיחת גאולתנו. We’re closer than ever to the final geula. Geula is a process not one moment.
By living in Israel we are bringing the mashiach sooner.

PinkFridge

Fri, May 24 2019, 11:48 am

essie14 wrote:

Be that as it may, are we not supposed to still feel pain that the Shechina is still not fully revealed? Do we not yearn for what we say in Aleinu?

etky

Fri, May 24 2019, 11:55 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Be that as it may, are we not supposed to still feel pain that the Shechina is still not fully revealed? Do we not yearn for what we say in Aleinu?

Seems like we're going around in circles here.
Yes to your question.
What is the contradiction between seeing the State of Israel as the beginning of geulah and being wishful for the completion of the process?
Not one poster on this thread has said that we should be happy with the way things are and not wish for the return of the shechina's dwelling in our midst.

etky

Fri, May 24 2019, 11:57 am

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

While we're presuming to know what G-d feels, maybe He's also pained by the thousands and thousands of frum Jews not returning to the homeland that he has made available to His people once again, after 2000 years of exile.

amother

Amethyst

Fri, May 24 2019, 11:57 am

There's no other area of life where Hashem grants us something wonderful and we say, sorry that isn't good enough. I won't say thanks until You do exactly what we want.

PinkFridge

Fri, May 24 2019, 11:59 am

etky wrote:

Excellent. As long as that's clear. We can have so many creature comforts - in EY yet - but we still haven't arrived.

essie14

Sat, May 25 2019, 1:39 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Be that as it may, are we not supposed to still feel pain that the Shechina is still not fully revealed? Do we not yearn for what we say in Aleinu?

OF COURSE. That’s what we’ve all been saying. I say לשנה הבאה בירושלים and daven for the complete גאולה but I still believe that the state of Israel today is ראשית, the beginning of our final גאולה. And I will celebrate its existence and thank Hashem profusely for what we have.
In no way do I think we’re living in the perfect existence without mashiach and the beit hamikdash.

Rappel

Sat, May 25 2019, 4:46 pm

essie14 wrote:

We believe the state of Israel is ראשית צמיחת גאולתנו. We’re closer than ever to the final geula. Geula is a process not one moment.
By living in Israel we are bringing the mashiach sooner.

Nice to know we all agree. I think everyone else said it as clearly as possible, so I'm just going to leave my "aye" vote here.

PinkFridge

Sun, May 26 2019, 9:12 am

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

There's no other area of life where Hashem grants us something wonderful and we say, sorry that isn't good enough. I won't say thanks until You do exactly what we want.

No, it's what HE wants.

We can be grateful. We SHOULD be grateful. But are you saying that THIS is good enough? How many karbanos should I list? Merkaz HaRav? Koby Mandel? Nachshon Wachsman? Zachary Baumol? And it's almost summer, so who won't be thinking about those beautiful three boys? Everyone else?

Hashem yinkom damam.

(I won't even mention the Shechina in galus.)

PinkFridge

Sun, May 26 2019, 9:14 am

Rappel wrote:

Nice to know we all agree. I think everyone else said it as clearly as possible, so I'm just going to leave my "aye" vote here.

I'm not going to disagree either. But we've had posters who seem to think, we have an army, or "it's good enough", so we've arrived.

Maybe they're just not phrasing themselves well.