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Vaccine question
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:43 pm
Disclaimer: I fully vax


With all the hoopla surrounding vaccines and there possible side affects, why has there never been a study that compares the over health and well being of vaccinated children vs the the overall health and well being of non vaccinated children?

Every so often I'll read about some absurd and useless study that the government is paying many millions of dollars for. Why can the government spend 10 million to study the mating habits of the African bee, but they can't conduct a solid safe study comparing the vaccinated vs the non vaccinated?
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:52 pm
You mean the overall health of the people who didn't die from preventable diseases versus the people who vax?

It's like comparing those that survived the Nazi death camps who live longer than those who never went to Nazi death camps.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 10:38 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
You mean the overall health of the people who didn't die from preventable diseases versus the people who vax?

It's like comparing those that survived the Nazi death camps who live longer than those who never went to Nazi death camps.



Yes. The overall health of everyone in the study, including those that die from preventable diseases.
Why can't they take 1000 vaxxers and 1000 non vaxxers, and track them from birth until around age 18, and compare the health of both groups (including death)? An anti vaxxer relative asked me this question, and frankly, I don't have any answer. I think it's a good question so I'm hoping someone can help me with a good response.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 10:42 pm
I think that there were some studies that showed no difference in overall health between the two groups.

That being said, there is a lot that goes into the overall health of a person and a valid study needs to weigh in all of those environmental, genetic, dietary, economic, etc factors.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 10:45 pm
I'm no scientist, but I can imagine there are more people who die from having measles than people who die from NOT having measles. I can also imagine that people who have the measles get more measles symptoms than people who dont get the measles.
Just my assumption. Physical health question SOLVED.
What they should track, though, (and monitor and treat) are the mental health issues that these ppl have.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:08 pm
I fully vax too (just because that’s what’s done, I’m not a strong pro-vaxxer) and I think it’s a good question. Why are people so defensive? And comparing not vaxxing to Nazi death camps! Sheesh. Everyone should embrace more knowledge.
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:17 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Disclaimer: I fully vax


With all the hoopla surrounding vaccines and there possible side affects, why has there never been a study that compares the over health and well being of vaccinated children vs the the overall health and well being of non vaccinated children?

Every so often I'll read about some absurd and useless study that the government is paying many millions of dollars for. Why can the government spend 10 million to study the mating habits of the African bee, but they can't conduct a solid safe study comparing the vaccinated vs the non vaccinated?


can you design a test to study "overall health and well being?"

most everyone I know (and I'm 40) has followed the vaccine schedule and collectively are "overall healthy". This likely has zero to do with the vaccinations as most everyone I know has not been exposed to the things vaccinated for.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:19 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
I'm no scientist, but I can imagine there are more people who die from having measles than people who die from NOT having measles. I can also imagine that people who have the measles get more measles symptoms than people who dont get the measles.
Just my assumption. Physical health question SOLVED.
What they should track, though, (and monitor and treat) are the mental health issues that these ppl have.



Thank you. So you established that unvaxed individuals will get measles more than vaxed individuals. In your world, physical health issue is SOLVED.
The anti vaxxers claim that they think it's reasonable that perhaps the reason why so many more kids have ADD, ADHD, autism, asthma, food allergies, mental illness, and other chronic health conditions more so than in years past is because of the vaccines. They believe that the fatality rate in measles and other diseases eradicated by vaccines is so minuscule, that it's worth it for example to have 1 in 50,000 die of measles and not have 1 in 7 have chronic health conditions. A study comparing the 2 groups would help us understand if there is any basis to their claim. I don't think this is a big chiddush, and like I said earlier, I can't think of any reason a study has never been done.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:19 pm
amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:
I fully vax too (just because that’s what’s done, I’m not a strong pro-vaxxer) and I think it’s a good question. Why are people so defensive? And comparing not vaxxing to Nazi death camps! Sheesh. Everyone should embrace more knowledge.


A lot can happen in 18 years. It is also hard to eliminate variables such as family size, pet ownership, the type of physical activities, etc all of which affect health. A baby in day care or one with many siblings might get sick more often than an only child who stays home, regardless of what vaccines they get.
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momsrus




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:21 pm
More children are surviving childhood today than they did when these diseases were rampant.

Seriously though, would your antivax relation be happy with any vaccine study other Than the one her quacks conduct
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happyness




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:21 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
I'm no scientist, but I can imagine there are more people who die from having measles than people who die from NOT having measles. I can also imagine that people who have the measles get more measles symptoms than people who dont get the measles.
Just my assumption. Physical health question SOLVED.
What they should track, though, (and monitor and treat) are the mental health issues that these ppl have.
Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause [u]

By the way, I used to think these anti-vaxxers were completely crazy. But now after meeting lots of them and some of them such normal, nice people, I realized that many of them are really normal people that just this part of them is incomprehensibly crazy.
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amother
Oak


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:21 pm
I fully vax too and think that's a good question.
I have another thought. Why are we so trusting of the pharmaceutical companies? Are they so holy and pure? Anyone think they behave totally honest and trustworthy? I have heard firsthand of bribing behaviors. And this makes me become wary.
The same way one would question a doctor or dentist when they want to prescribe or give more than is indicated, when they want to give more anesthesia than is needed etc? They admit that they get paid per dose. Ask your doctor how much they get paid per vaccine. Why do you think lots of products get promoted. Why will a doctor suddenly want to switch brands of a medication that's already prescribed, even when theres a risk of changing?
I agree and believe that since vaxxing is accepted practice nowadays that's what we should do. But I can hear hesitation.
We know that bribery blinds the eyes of tzadikim! Even when they barely realize it themselves! Yet doctors are supposed to be above that. They aren't.
I would like to hear what others say to all this. I feel like this point wasn't ever really discussed.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:22 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Yes. The overall health of everyone in the study, including those that die from preventable diseases.
Why can't they take 1000 vaxxers and 1000 non vaxxers, and track them from birth until around age 18, and compare the health of both groups (including death)? An anti vaxxer relative asked me this question, and frankly, I don't have any answer. I think it's a good question so I'm hoping someone can help me with a good response.


Just know that if you’re following 1000 antivaxxers in a country where most people are vaccinated, the results are skewed. Most antivaxxers are fine because the vaxxers help keep serious diseases at bay. If no one vaxxed, I think you would see a big difference in health between the two.

Anyway, I do think they have some studies that show vaccinated children are just as healthy. But regardless, I’d take a child with learning disabilities and allergies (for example) over serious diseases any day.
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amother
Saddlebrown


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:30 pm
I think the point is to see health issues EXCLUSIVE of the specific VPDs (vaccine preventable diseases).

It is entirely possible that there are no real differences between the two groups.

But if there ARE differences, shouldn't a parent be able to decide that they'll take a low risk of diphtheria over a high risk of life-threatening allergies or constant health issues? I mean, we do allow people to take the significant health risks of accutane for a purely social issue. (I do think this should probably be limited to vaccines which don't provide herd immunity.)

MMR may be different because of the extremely high death rates in immunocompromised persons, and I personally know several anti-vaxxers who do differentiate for it, but I don't see why everyone can't know what risk we are assuming.

But 2,000 in the study is probably far too few to be able to draw significant statistical conclusions. Remember that death rate for measles is 1/10,000, and many of the other risks are likely rare as well.
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:35 pm
amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:
I think the point is to see health issues EXCLUSIVE of the specific VPDs (vaccine preventable diseases).

It is entirely possible that there are no real differences between the two groups.

But if there ARE differences, shouldn't a parent be able to decide that they'll take a low risk of diphtheria over a high risk of life-threatening allergies or constant health issues? I mean, we do allow people to take the significant health risks of accutane for a purely social issue. (I do think this should probably be limited to vaccines which don't provide herd immunity.)

MMR may be different because of the extremely high death rates in immunocompromised persons, and I personally know several anti-vaxxers who do differentiate for it, but I don't see why everyone can't know what risk we are assuming.

But 2,000 in the study is probably far too few to be able to draw significant statistical conclusions. Remember that death rate for measles is 1/10,000, and many of the other risks are likely rare as well.



sounds like this study would require giving test groups of children 1 type of vaccine only. This would require finding parents to agree to this.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:39 pm
People are exposed to many things that are harmful to health so how do we isolate one factor? The child with ADHD may be exposed to a variety of possible toxic chemicals so even if he has the disorder, how do we prove that a vaccine caused it?

And if there would be less ADHD among the non-vaccinated, maybe those parents also give less antibiotics, pesticides, artificial coloring, etc so how do we know that specifically removing vaccines is responsible for the normal attention span?
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polka dots




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:41 pm
Wouldn’t be accurate because the antivaxx people are protected by herd immunity to most illness’s. You can try comparing overall health of developed countries to 3rd world. Or overall health of kids in the 1800s to modern times
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:44 pm
polka dots wrote:
Wouldn’t be accurate because the antivaxx people are protected by herd immunity to most illness’s. You can try comparing overall health of developed countries to 3rd world. Or overall health of kids in the 1800s to modern times


They are protected by herd immunity to the illness for which the vaccines provide protection.

OP is imagining a world were 'overall health' omits all vaccine preventable diseases. To see if vaccines are the culprit of everything else.
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yksraya




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:54 pm
I don't see a point in such a study. Bh the vast majority does vaccinate. And people bh have healthy kids. So why just compare kids. There are enough kids from anti vax homes that have issues, and enough fully vaxed homes with kids with no issues. It really has nothing with the vaccines.

Vaccine injuries are extremely rare. Those that blame vaccines for any issues their child has, are just pointing fingers although it usually has nothing to do with the vaccine. It's easier to find something to blame it on, than to admit their kid was born with issues.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 11:57 pm
southernbubby wrote:
People are exposed to many things that are harmful to health so how do we isolate one factor? The child with ADHD may be exposed to a variety of possible toxic chemicals so even if he has the disorder, how do we prove that a vaccine caused it?

And if there would be less ADHD among the non-vaccinated, maybe those parents also give less antibiotics, pesticides, artificial coloring, etc so how do we know that specifically removing vaccines is responsible for the normal attention span?




I'm sorry, you're giving a very weak answer. Look, no study is perfect. There are often variables that impact the study and potentially make their results unreliable. There is no way around this yet scientists continuously do studies and accept results. If I tell you a study was conducted that ultimately concluded that having 8 hours of sleep at night leads to more productivity than have 4 hours of sleep a night. You could always ask:

1. Maybe the 8 hours of sleep group are overall healthier.
2. Maybe the 8 hour group have better beds and mattresses.
3. Maybe the 8 hour group happened to have less stress in their lives.
4. Maybe the 8 hour group consisted of religious people who had more faith and were calmer.

The point is that scientists conduct a study and do their best to not allow anything to influence the results except for what the study is intended for. It's not perfect, but it's reasonably reliable. Same with a vaccine study. Take people from similar homes, with similar family health issues, (preferably none) who were born naturally to young and healthy parents and compare the lives of both groups after a certain number of years.
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