Vaccine question | Imamother

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 1:51 am

Anecdata is interesting, but not that useful. Anecdata would tell us that measles is totally harmless, because most of us don't have 1000 close friends to find out that 1/1000 get more serious cases of measles, and most of us don't have 10,000 close friends to find out that 1/10,000 might die from it.

It is true that the data might tell us that vaccines make no difference at all, they might show that measles increases risks of peanut allergies in 5% of the population, or might even correlate vaccinating with increase of developmental delays. Or the converse. Either way, why are you against a study?

amother

Orange

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 1:55 am

yksraya wrote:

But your study is nonsense and mine is based on real facts...

So there goes your very reasonable request to have it studied...

Not smart to want kids to be non vaxed just to satisfy some looneys.

And just as a little side point. I'm sure there were plenty vaccine trials that did not pass the FDA. Vaccines have had plenty of testing to ensure safety. It's not so easily approved...

Vaccines have been studied individually for a short time frame after administration. For example, Hep B was studied for 5 days. Those of us who are concerned about vaccines (not against them completely, merely concerned) would like to see studies of the entire accumulative effects of the current schedule for a long period of time. Compare cancer rates and so on.

lovetobemommy

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 1:58 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Disclaimer: I fully vax

With all the hoopla surrounding vaccines and there possible side affects, why has there never been a study that compares the over health and well being of vaccinated children vs the the overall health and well being of non vaccinated children?

Every so often I'll read about some absurd and useless study that the government is paying many millions of dollars for. Why can the government spend 10 million to study the mating habits of the African bee, but they can't conduct a solid safe study comparing the vaccinated vs the non vaccinated?

So you want to tell me you have read every single study out there and you know for sure that there wasn't such study ever conducted anywhere in the world?????

I hate when people come out with exclamations that there have never been a study for this or that..... How do they know????
Just because you didn't hear of such a study doesn't mean it doesn't exist......

yerushamama

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 2:16 am

lovetobemommy wrote:

I would assume that if there were such a study, people on one side or the other would be using it to prove their points.

momsrus

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 2:19 am

yerushamama wrote:

I would assume that if there were such a study, people on one side or the other would be using it to prove their points.

I’m going to assume the results were pro vax then. Or the antivaxxers would know about it

amother

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 2:31 am

yksraya wrote:

Your study is based on "real facts" of a tiny sample of people. A minuscule sample invalidate a study for obvious reasons.
Nobody would have to encourage not vaccinating for the sake of the study. There are many families that simply don't vax that could participate.

amother

Azure

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 2:41 am

Study showing decreased rates of asthma for vaccinated children.
https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(13)01860-5/abstract

No statistically significant differences between vaccinated vs unvaxxed
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....7555/

Cognitive differences between vaxxed and unvaxxed.
https://www.tandfonline.com/do.....uote]

We can all cherry pick studies back and forth. But with science its all about consensus. The vast majority agree that in a risk vs benefit analysis, vaccines are safe and beneficial.

amother

Cobalt

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 2:42 am

OP you are innocently proclaiming to be "pro vax" yet you are quoting or rather misquoting all empty excuses of the "pro measles" fanatics...looneys...stop being busy with studies. You will NEVER trust any studies....You want to go back 80 years when mortality rate was about 55-60 years , infants and adults lived much shorter lives. With medical advancements boruch Hashem, we are living much longer healthier lives. Who are you kidding????

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 2:47 am

There actually have been several observational studies performed comparing populations of vaxxed v unvaxxed kids.

Here's one, performed in Germany on 13,000+ children, which found that "The prevalence of allergic diseases and non-specific infections in children and adolescents was not found to depend on vaccination status."

Here's a blog post listing several other studies that compare vaxxed and unvaxxed populations, and a summary of their findings.

Hope this helps your relative, OP. Oh, and here's a list of the flaws in the anti-vax study posted earlier (which was funded by an anti-vax organization, "peer"-reviewed by a chiropractor, not an epidemiologist, and published in a pay-to-publish journal).

southernbubby

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 9:09 am

So if we go to our local health department to get vaccinated, are we denying our doctor a chance to get rich? It looks like some vaccines are lost leaders for chain pharmacies so if we go for that flu shot but fail to shop for toilet paper, have we denied someone the chance to make a huge profit from the flu shot? Or are those shots low profit margin cash cows?

momsrus

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 9:59 am

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

OP, Here's your answer.

Let me know why these studies are invalid.

amother

Royalblue

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 10:19 am

All my kids are vaccinated.

The reasons people here are giving for these studies not being useful really just indicate that the studies should be more targeted.

So instead of large groups of thousands of randomly typed people, there could be large groups of selected subsets (eg - population with familial predisposition to allergies, or mitachondrial disorder, or autoimmune diseases, or autism etc.)
Sounds like a good idea to me.

As for all the lifestyle variables... this is a problem that researchers deal with in many studies, and a study is just that: a study.

Results of one study may not be proof of a hypothesis, but they can often provide direction for a more focused study.

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 10:58 am

[quote="amother [ Azure ]"]Study showing decreased rates of asthma for vaccinated children.
https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(13)01860-5/abstract

No statistically significant differences between vaccinated vs unvaxxed
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....7555/

Cognitive differences between vaxxed and unvaxxed.
https://www.tandfonline.com/do.....2TF8o

Quote:

We can all cherry pick studies back and forth. But with science its all about consensus. The vast majority agree that in a risk vs benefit analysis, vaccines are safe and beneficial.

That third study is especially interesting. It was a longitudinal study, showing that vaccinated children had cognitive test scores that were half a standard deviation higher than unvaccinated children.

YES! We should emphasize this! Vaccinated kids did a whole lot better on their cognitive tests!

To put this in perspective, it is often claimed that Ashkenazic Jews' IQ score is half a standard deviation higher than that of other groups. Get enough Ashkenazic Jews to give up vaccinating their kids, and there goes our IQ advantage. We become just like everybody else. Do we want that to happen?

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 11:38 am

amother [ Magenta ] wrote:

Despite its limitations the study is interesting.
What specifically jumped out at me was the 20% gap between the number of children who had a well visit checkup in the past 12 months.

Vaccinated 57.6%
Unvaccinated 37.2%

This is very revealing and discredits the results for me.

The participants were 91.1 % Christian.
All homeschooled.
62.8% of the unvaccinated children did not have a regular well visit.
This fits the profile of parents who are distrustful of the medical establishment and adhere to the Christian belief that G-d created perfect humans who need no intervention.

Interesting, I hadn’t even noticed that part of the study. I was already thinking it was likely that the vaccinated children were diagnosed with more pneumonia and otitis media (middle ear infections) because they visit the doctor more frequently! Antivaxxers may just treat these things from home.

amother

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 12:53 pm

momsrus wrote:

OP, Here's your answer.

Let me know why these studies are invalid.

I'm not saying they are invalid. I would say that in order to address the concern of the non vaxxers that the vaccine schedule causes all sorts of health problems, the studies being conducted would have to include similar vaccine schedules. In other words I believe there are 72 vaccines given from birth to 18 in the US. In the German study, how many vaccines were given to the vaxxed group? If it is similar to our vaccine schedule then I have no problem with it. If there are far fewer vaccines in that study, then the comparison isn't valid.

miami85

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 1:37 pm

Along the same lines as the OP. I read a post by someone who did vaccinate their children and one child suffered devastating effects from the vaccine and much research was done about her condition and how to treat it. I was wondering, lets take all that reasearch and figure out who is susceptible to vaccine side-effects and screen better to avoid the really problematic reactions. I know that won't convince those who think that they can cure diseases with essential oils, but perhaps quiet the #wedid movement.

yksraya

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 1:43 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

They would need to find atleast 5000 non vaxed newborns....