Does hashem want different things from different communities

amother

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 4:17 pm

I saw this sentence on a different thread today, and it has me wondering. In some communities various things are not done (in the name of yidishkeit) and in other communities those same things are completely ok. Whether it's sheitels, the way way dress, driving, having a tv, and many more.

To give an example: If you live in 5towns then hashem doesn't mind if your dh davens shachris in his jeans and then heads to the ballgame where he buys a beer. If you live in Lakewood then hashem is bothered by this. Seems strange to me.

leah233

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 4:35 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The examples given aren't all comparable.

In Lakewood davening in jeans would be considered a sign of disrespect. In the 5 Towns it wouldn't.

Heading to ball game and buying a beer may be controversial but they don't affect major fundamentals of Judaism. Even most people who disapproves of such behavior would agree that someone who does so can still be a very good Jew.

And most people who head to the ball game would agree that a guy who spends his time learning or doing other mitzvos instead of heading to the ball game is spending his time in a better manner than them.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 4:43 pm

leah233 wrote:

How can you know that? And I will say that this is juts not true. Most people who are going to watch a ball game are not thinking "Oh, I should really be learning now instead, thats better time spent". No, thats not how it is at all. Different communities so different things will be acceptable. And going to a baseball game, in some communities, is not worse time spent than learning. Its just something else.

leah233

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 4:51 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I'm unaware of any Orthodox community that openly takes the position that Limud H'Torah has no more value than drinking beer at a ball game.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 5:00 pm

leah233 wrote:

I'm unaware of any Orthodox community that openly takes the position that Limud H'Torah has no more value than drinking beer at a ball game.

I didnt say that. The sentence was the other way around. The other poster said, and I quote "a guy who spends his time learning or doing other mitzvos instead of heading to the ball game is spending his time in a better manner than them."
I never said going to a ball game was the same. The poster made it seem that going to a ball game was seen as bad. Why is enjoying life and not always learning a bad thing? Again, different communities. I never lived in any community where guys learned all of the time. Men work, go to games, have fun, do other things besides learn. And its a value in some places and not in others.

tweek

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 5:18 pm

I think there is something to be said to taking into account the community someone is born into. That is part of the life that Hashem designed for them, just like who their parents are, what they look like, what type of children they have etc.

At the same time, part of that design might be that the individual has to overcome elements of the life that they were born into. For some people, that might be doing things differently than the norms in their community.

amother

Natural

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 6:16 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Because what the Torah is all about & what matters to Hashem is your middos, character and and your behavioral responses to the situation you're in. Our purposes in life is not to make sure we wear a sheital or tichel or jeans or black pair of pants. It's our mind processes and behaviors that we have to work on.

If you're in a community that does things that don't speak to you, you can choose your response. You can snub every behavior, be rude and disrespectful and go around hurting everyone's feelings, or you can respect everyone nonetheless, be careful of hurting others and go about your way quietly and unobserved.

Hashem puts everyone into a community where they can work on their shortcomings. Sometimes that means dealing properly with things that make you uncomfortable, and sometimes that means making a move to a community that will make your yiddishkeit more appealing to you. But regardless which option you choose, it all can be done with respect, caring and consideration.

I don't believe that after 120 Hashem will be asking for a cheshbon hanefesh why a person wore a sheital or tichel, or she did or did not drive, or davened with jeans or a black pants. But I do believe, He will be asking us for a cheshbon hanefesh how we treated others that wore jeans or black pants, or if shamed a woman driver, or badmouthing a long-sheitel wearer etc.

Its only in the last few decades that things have become so twisted as you described above. We have made all these nuances to become the actual Torah in the respective communities, and we push the actual Torah aside in the process.

amother

Gold

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 6:29 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If you would have the choice to not date and marry the guy you met once or twice in the house and then shave your head the day after your marriage then would you choose to marry and have as many kids as Hashem decided you should have without taking birth control? Would you choose not to graduate high school and go to college but get married to someone you met once or twice instead and then get food stamps, wic, etc and not be allowed to drive? Of course Hashem doesn't want that and none of it has to do with yiddishkeit but not everyone has a choice in the matter. If you were born into a community that restricts things that have nothing to do with yiddishkeit then how do you get out if all the other communities are vastly different than the one you were born into?

amother

Pumpkin

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 6:46 pm

Honestly, I think Hashem is laughing at all our chumrahs.
The Torah says not to cook a calf in its mother's milk, yet here we are waiting how many hours after chicken, using separate plates......

I am not CVS saying not to keep the mitzvot as they have been handed down to us, but does Hashem really care what kind of hat you wear?

Natural, I love what you said. Could have not said it better myself and if I could like it a dozen time, I would.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 7:12 pm

Of course we're not supposed to be clones. I vaguely remember a Rabbi Reisman navi shiur on this from maybe two years ago. I can't remember what it was apropos to but remember him describing how in the times of the gemara different communities had widely differing psakim and did things differently. That was l'halacha.

Moving on from that, let's talk about cultural mores and differences. Since we've just started Bamidbar I'll leave you with this: We officially got the degalim and the order of the encampments (which I guess had been known since Yaakov's death and how the shevatim gathered around him) ONLY after matan Torah and the centrality of the mishkan. Read Rav Hirsch on parashas Bamidbar to learn about each of the shevatim's unique strengths. (You can also learn birkas Yaakov.) Once we would live united around one common goal, only then could we talk about our differences. Because those differences would be manifest in the different ways we would all be working for the same goal of kavod Shamayim.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 7:24 pm

sequoia wrote:

This is a ridiculous question. It’s like asking, “does Hashem want some people to work through health issues/abuse/abandonment, and others to have easy happy lives?”

Yes, humans are born in and experience different circumstances. This applies to religious communities (or lack thereof) as well as to every other aspect of life.

I agree. It's obvious that Hashem has different expectations of us. But I wonder if some people think, is there one actual way that is the optimal and that's what Hashem wants us to find? If someone really does think that, I'm not sure how to reach her ;-D

aliavi

Sun, Jun 16 2019, 8:06 pm

Parts of the emphasis of doing what is done in a community comes from the concepts of being as one, klal yisroel and from following daas Torah. There are many opinions for the same question that can be valid.

I see the differences as beautiful. Each neshama can find what speaks to it the most, to live and grow in that community. Neither of the places you mentioned are my ideal at this point in my life but I do think they have an important place on this Earth in HaShem’s eyes.

yerushamama

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 1:48 am

By Krias Yam Suf, every shevet went through separately. We see this in many other things too. We also learn that there are "70 faces" to the torah. As long as we keep the torah, and follow our Rabbanim, different minhagim are for different groups. There is no need to fight about what is better - this isn't a competition! Discussion and even debate is fine as long as we all understand that each of us follows our own Rabbis.

DrMom

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 1:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I would say that if you live in 5 Towns, your local community doesn't mind if your dh davens shachris in his jeans and then heads to the ballgame where he buys a beer. If you live in Lakewood then your local community is bothered by this.

salt

Mon, Jun 17 2019, 2:08 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

It annoys me when people bring the meat-milk thing as an example of a chumra. Are you a Kara'ite? There's Torah she-bichtav and Torah she-be'al peh.
Bring a different example of chumrahs, there are plenty!