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Trusting doctors
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 4:49 pm
chmom wrote:
This is because as scientifically trained doctors we treat our patients with the help of evidence-based medicine, meaning that we only recommended treatments which have been proven to be useful in trials often over and over again. If you now report that your childs pinworms vanished after being on a low-carb diet, that does not consist of a trial but of an anecdote, also the children in the neighbourhood speaking about getting pinworms after eating candy in no way shape or form conforms to a serious medical study and proves nothing concerning low carbohydrate diet and pinworms.
So when you speak about our truth versus your truth us doctors try to adhere to scientific principles and as best possible recommend treatments which can scientifically and statistically be recommended to our best knowledge and Conscience.
I am assuming you wouldn’t appreciate a Doctor, who prescribes treatments based solely on the fact how he or she feels about their usefulness.
This does not mean that there are illnesses sometimes that have different courses of action or that certain patients respond differently to certain medications but all recommended courses of treatment tends to adhere to existing scientific guidelines.

Nowhere is anyone accusing doctors of lying or making up stuff. We're talking about the research that's not necessarily out there. Which you don't have. So no one's blaming you or anything. Fact is every single bingle person I've spoken to regarding eczema and (separately) yeast related infections has seen an increase in itchiness after consuming sugar. Not a single doctor will tell you that. And when I asked my doctor about it, she said if the skin prick test and the blood test did not show that DC has an allergy to sugar, then it's unrelated. Um? Really? I understand she's saying that because that's what research is showing now, but we all agree that research is constantly showing new things. So yeah, we should be giving way more credence to what the patients themselves are reporting. Even when it's not in the research (yet).
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 5:20 pm
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
Nowhere is anyone accusing doctors of lying or making up stuff. We're talking about the research that's not necessarily out there. Which you don't have. So no one's blaming you or anything. Fact is every single bingle person I've spoken to regarding eczema and (separately) yeast related infections has seen an increase in itchiness after consuming sugar. Not a single doctor will tell you that. And when I asked my doctor about it, she said if the skin prick test and the blood test did not show that DC has an allergy to sugar, then it's unrelated. Um? Really? I understand she's saying that because that's what research is showing now, but we all agree that research is constantly showing new things. So yeah, we should be giving way more credence to what the patients themselves are reporting. Even when it's not in the research (yet).


I think it is valid to point out that when we as patients or relatives of patients report what seems to us to work or not work, our observations should not be dismissed as "anecdata." It's dismissive and more to the point, misses a real opportunity to move research in a helpful direction.

My own example is the horrible arthritis that I got just as I was graduating college. I had endless tests, which always turned up negative. Years and years later, through a happy accident (South Beach Diet Phase 1, plus repeated trial and error), I found that going off gluten was enormously helpful. I told doctors about it at the time and they smirked. But now it's known that one of the symptoms of celiac and of garden-variety gluten intolerance is excruciating joint pain.

I think it's wrong to ignore these anecdotes. If all of them were put into a central database (while ensuring patient privacy), it might facilitate discovery of possible patterns, which could then be investigated.

The thing is this: For vaccinations, this research has been done. There have been many studies showing safety and effectiveness. There are some truly horrible stories, like the seizures that Southern Bubby's son suffered. But in general, they are amazingly rare, and seem to be random, no more common than in people who are not vaccinated.

I'm not discounting adverse effects from medical interventions. I'm agreeing that anecdotes should be collected, because they are valuable sources of information. But opposing vaccines seems to be opposing the best medical intervention (risk-benefit wise) that medicine has in its arsenal.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 5:34 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
I think it is valid to point out that when we as patients or relatives of patients report what seems to us to work or not work, our observations should not be dismissed as "anecdata." It's dismissive and more to the point, misses a real opportunity to move research in a helpful direction.

My own example is the horrible arthritis that I got just as I was graduating college. I had endless tests, which always turned up negative. Years and years later, through a happy accident (South Beach Diet Phase 1, plus repeated trial and error), I found that going off gluten was enormously helpful. I told doctors about it at the time and they smirked. But now it's known that one of the symptoms of celiac and of garden-variety gluten intolerance is excruciating joint pain.

I think it's wrong to ignore these anecdotes. If all of them were put into a central database (while ensuring patient privacy), it might facilitate discovery of possible patterns, which could then be investigated.

The thing is this: For vaccinations, this research has been done. There have been many studies showing safety and effectiveness. There are some truly horrible stories, like the seizures that Southern Bubby's son suffered. But in general, they are amazingly rare, and seem to be random, no more common than in people who are not vaccinated.

I'm not discounting adverse effects from medical interventions. I'm agreeing that anecdotes should be collected, because they are valuable sources of information. But opposing vaccines seems to be opposing the best medical intervention (risk-benefit wise) that medicine has in its arsenal.


In my son's case, the decision to deny him all vaccines for the remainder of his childhood was a huge gamble because he had previously been vaccinated successfully but we were told to rely on herd immunity. This was not a boy who lived at home where he was safe from germs. He chose to go away to yeshiva at 13 and was eventually in foreign countries. He took enormous risks but luckily there were no outbreaks of VPDs then.
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 5:53 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
I think it is valid to point out that when we as patients or relatives of patients report what seems to us to work or not work, our observations should not be dismissed as "anecdata." It's dismissive and more to the point, misses a real opportunity to move research in a helpful direction.

My own example is the horrible arthritis that I got just as I was graduating college. I had endless tests, which always turned up negative. Years and years later, through a happy accident (South Beach Diet Phase 1, plus repeated trial and error), I found that going off gluten was enormously helpful. I told doctors about it at the time and they smirked. But now it's known that one of the symptoms of celiac and of garden-variety gluten intolerance is excruciating joint pain.

I think it's wrong to ignore these anecdotes. If all of them were put into a central database (while ensuring patient privacy), it might facilitate discovery of possible patterns, which could then be investigated.

The thing is this: For vaccinations, this research has been done. There have been many studies showing safety and effectiveness. There are some truly horrible stories, like the seizures that Southern Bubby's son suffered. But in general, they are amazingly rare, and seem to be random, no more common than in people who are not vaccinated.

I'm not discounting adverse effects from medical interventions. I'm agreeing that anecdotes should be collected, because they are valuable sources of information. But opposing vaccines seems to be opposing the best medical intervention (risk-benefit wise) that medicine has in its arsenal.

For some of us, we are just unlucky in that we know too many of such horrible stories. And then we apply the same anecdata, as you describe above, to vaccines - despite some research.

I am not one to say no research was ever done on vaccines. I'm saying that sufficient research has not been done. There are too many of such stories. I don't have thousands of acquaintances and I know firsthand of two such stories. One child is dead, the other was nearly dead except BH the mother found her child blue, and Hatzalah revived her. (And I heard of many more second and third hand... lol) We need to keep looking and keep digging and listen to these people who have suffered, not dismiss them, until we find what can be done to make vaccines safe for everyone.

This is already overlapping with another thread in this sub-forum, but I noticed from the studies posted there that none were done in the US. Why not? There's such a strong attitude here that "vaccines are safe and effective" that the research is not being done. In 1986, the NCVIA was signed removing liability from vaccine producers. At the same time, to counter-act that, the NCVIA required that the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) review childhood vaccine safety on a biannual basis and report to Congress on measures taken to improve safety. However, HHS officials have never complied with the statutory safety review and reporting requirements even once in over thirty years. Why? Why?

Is there any wonder so many of us are distrustful?
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amother
Denim


 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 5:57 pm
chmom wrote:
This is because as scientifically trained doctors we treat our patients with the help of evidence-based medicine, meaning that we only recommended treatments which have been proven to be useful in trials often over and over again. If you now report that your childs pinworms vanished after being on a low-carb diet, that does not consist of a trial but of an anecdote, also the children in the neighbourhood speaking about getting pinworms after eating candy in no way shape or form conforms to a serious medical study and proves nothing concerning low carbohydrate diet and pinworms.
So when you speak about our truth versus your truth us doctors try to adhere to scientific principles and as best possible recommend treatments which can scientifically and statistically be recommended to our best knowledge and Conscience.
I am assuming you wouldn’t appreciate a Doctor, who prescribes treatments based solely on the fact how he or she feels about their usefulness.
This does not mean that there are illnesses sometimes that have different courses of action or that certain patients respond differently to certain medications but all recommended courses of treatment tends to adhere to existing scientific guidelines.


All your science isn't helping me in daily life, and you refuse to admit that I have found simple alternatives that don't mess with my mind and body. You don't WANT to study the connection between diet and health. No prob, but that means I don't trust you since you're shutting out many possibilities of enhanced health and quality of life.
For serious illness, I don't have answers in simple alternatives, so for those I go to top docs.
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chmom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 6:33 pm
amother [ Denim ] wrote:
All your science isn't helping me in daily life, and you refuse to admit that I have found simple alternatives that don't mess with my mind and body. You don't WANT to study the connection between diet and health. No prob, but that means I don't trust you since you're shutting out many possibilities of enhanced health and quality of life.
For serious illness, I don't have answers in simple alternatives, so for those I go to top docs.

What do you mean all the science isn’t helping you in daily life? Where do you think our knowledge of germ theory comes from? Why do you think mortality and morbidity of pregnancy and child birth is at an all time low? Why do you think we know that clean water is important for the health of our population?
This is all science!
I’m not saying that patient experience should be dismissed out of hand but you also have to understand that we are bound by certain professional guidelines. I don’t understand your remarks about me not WANTING to study the connection between diet and health. Are you speaking to me personally or you as in all physicians?
There definitely are studies on the influence of diet/ nutrition on health. They might not prove your point though.
We ( doctors) are really not out to damage you or talk you into harmful therapies, the overwhelming majority of us genuinely wants to help you with your medical problems and see you feel better, so I really don’t understand this stance of many people that we almost seem to be the enemy.
And on what principles do you think the “top” doctors run their practice? Reading tea leaves?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 7:06 pm
chmom wrote:
What do you mean all the science isn’t helping you in daily life? Where do you think our knowledge of germ theory comes from? Why do you think mortality and morbidity of pregnancy and child birth is at an all time low? Why do you think we know that clean water is important for the health of our population?
This is all science!
I’m not saying that patient experience should be dismissed out of hand but you also have to understand that we are bound by certain professional guidelines. I don’t understand your remarks about me not WANTING to study the connection between diet and health. Are you speaking to me personally or you as in all physicians?
There definitely are studies on the influence of diet/ nutrition on health. They might not prove your point though.
We ( doctors) are really not out to damage you or talk you into harmful therapies, the overwhelming majority of us genuinely wants to help you with your medical problems and see you feel better, so I really don’t understand this stance of many people that we almost seem to be the enemy.
And on what principles do you think the “top” doctors run their practice? Reading tea leaves?


I went to Monsey Medical for a cholesterol test and the doctor did in fact recommend dietary changes instead of medications. Big pharma lost and the grocery store won, all due to standard medical practice.
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amother
Black


 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 7:27 pm
amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:
Why is there always such a trust issue with doctors? I am a medical doctor and live and work in Israel. I am also a frum Jew. I honestly try to treat my patients to the best of my knowledge and I know that Hashem is the one who really heals, I'm merely a conduit. As I'm human, I can't always avoid errors or bad judgement. But I generally only recommend treatments that I myself would take if I had the patient's condition. That goes for vaccinations as well, my children are vaccinated, I'm vaccinated and I recommend it to others because to the best of my knowledge the benefits outweigh the risks in almost all cases, with very few exceptions.
I'm not out there to get you and I don't get any special payments from big pharm or something like that.
Besides, if you have a problem with the brakes in your car, do you trust the car mechanic to fix it properly? What if he doesn't and your brakes fail, c"v? In a way, you trust him with your life. Just think how many deadly traffic accidents there are all the time. Some are caused by technical failures. Do you google how to change brake pads?
What about an electrician? Do you trust him to do his job properly? If he doesn't, you could get an electric fire and your house could burn down in the middle of the night, c"v. Do you google how to wire up a house, just to be sure?


Yes, most people believe that most doctors do the best to their ability. It's perhaps more fair to say it's not doctors people don't trust, but the science they base their recommendations upon, which people are sceptical of. Rare is the person who believes doctors are trying to harm their patients, but many aware consumers are afraid that the science used by doctors today is compromised. For example, they wonder whether a pharmaceutical and/or vaccine manufacturer directly or indirectly funded some of the studies which showed that a drug/vaccine is safe. They wonder whether a doctor will be rewarded with incentives for prescribe a particular pharmaceutical product. Most of all, people ask, and rightfully so, whether scientific knowledge will change in decades, to the effect that medical science will discover that drugs/vaccines/etc. which were once believed to be safe and effective will be proved dangerous and ineffective.
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amother
Ruby


 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 8:34 pm
amother [ Black ] wrote:
Yes, most people believe that most doctors do the best to their ability. It's perhaps more fair to say it's not doctors people don't trust, but the science they base their recommendations upon, which people are sceptical of. Rare is the person who believes doctors are trying to harm their patients, but many aware consumers are afraid that the science used by doctors today is compromised. For example, they wonder whether a pharmaceutical and/or vaccine manufacturer directly or indirectly funded some of the studies which showed that a drug/vaccine is safe. They wonder whether a doctor will be rewarded with incentives for prescribe a particular pharmaceutical product. Most of all, people ask, and rightfully so, whether scientific knowledge will change in decades, to the effect that medical science will discover that drugs/vaccines/etc. which were once believed to be safe and effective will be proved dangerous and ineffective.


Extremely well-said.
Decades ago, when doctors recommended smoking and performed lobotomies, they were also acting in the best interests of the patients as they knew best at the time. Or when doctors routinely prescribed antibiotics for what we now know are either viruses or mild infections that would go away on their own...thousands of such examples. Most people who don't "trust doctors" aren't claiming doctors are maliciously harming patients for money. They are just uncomfortable relying on them as 100% foolproof sources of information when so much of their knowledge is industry-tainted.
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yksraya




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 9:40 pm
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
Nowhere is anyone accusing doctors of lying or making up stuff. We're talking about the research that's not necessarily out there. Which you don't have. So no one's blaming you or anything. Fact is every single bingle person I've spoken to regarding eczema and (separately) yeast related infections has seen an increase in itchiness after consuming sugar. Not a single doctor will tell you that. And when I asked my doctor about it, she said if the skin prick test and the blood test did not show that DC has an allergy to sugar, then it's unrelated. Um? Really? I understand she's saying that because that's what research is showing now, but we all agree that research is constantly showing new things. So yeah, we should be giving way more credence to what the patients themselves are reporting. Even when it's not in the research (yet).

I actually haven't yet seen a single dr that wouldn't tell to cut sugar if there is a yeast infection. I was told to cut sugar, and I know plenty of people who were told the same.
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 9:59 pm
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
Extremely well-said.
Decades ago, when doctors recommended smoking and performed lobotomies, they were also acting in the best interests of the patients as they knew best at the time. Or when doctors routinely prescribed antibiotics for what we now know are either viruses or mild infections that would go away on their own...thousands of such examples. Most people who don't "trust doctors" aren't claiming doctors are maliciously harming patients for money. They are just uncomfortable relying on them as 100% foolproof sources of information when so much of their knowledge is industry-tainted.


Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 10:00 pm
amother [ Denim ] wrote:
All your science isn't helping me in daily life, and you refuse to admit that I have found simple alternatives that don't mess with my mind and body. You don't WANT to study the connection between diet and health. No prob, but that means I don't trust you since you're shutting out many possibilities of enhanced health and quality of life.
For serious illness, I don't have answers in simple alternatives, so for those I go to top docs.


You wrote that on a computer.
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amother
Slategray


 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 10:04 pm
Maybe wrote:
Great question

#1 Doctors DON'T learn much about vaccines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....t=10s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?.....t=14s

https://physiciansforinformedc.....tion/


#2 Vaccines are their cash cow, verify that with any medical billing company.

Oh wow. then my doctors are big tzadikim. We had an ID consult pre my child starting an immunosupressive med. doctor says: since your child hasn't gotten MMR yet & it's a live vaccine & you live in outbreak area child will need 2.
So we couldn't give it that day because child was pre a different treatment that you can't get live vaccines 4 wks before/after. so ID says np, give it by your pediatrician. but pediatrician is in a different city so she said, "don't come in for this" so we go to a local dr to get vaccine.
fast forward & we are discussing giving mmr #2 but ID looks at titer results and said wow- child had such a robust response to one dose- you can skip the 2'nd & thus start treatment faster. Thank you doctors.

So are you proposing to say that both these drs so easily let the fish swim away & let someone else get the $$$?
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soap suds




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 12:30 am
rydys wrote:
One other point about vaccines being a "cash cow" for physicians. When I see your child for a vaccine visit, I get paid nothing for the visit, and about 15 cents for the injection itself, which basically covers the cost of the syringe. Doctors DO NOT make money off of vaccines.

My pediatrician told me that they often have to throw out expired vaccines, so not only doesn't he make any money on it, but sometimes ends up with a loss.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 4:32 am
Maybe wrote:
#2 Vaccines are their cash cow, verify that with any medical billing company.

As an aid to anyone who wants to do that, could you include which department of a medical billing company answers such questions?
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 8:12 am
imasoftov wrote:
As an aid to anyone who wants to do that, could you include which department of a medical billing company answers such questions?


I love your answer. Does the local health department get rich off of the Medicaid patients who get free vaccines there? In frum communities, many kids are on government insurance so I doubt that doctors are getting rich by caring for them and in fact, most people would be shocked at how little pediatricians earn. The supposed cash cow gives beans instead of beef.
Is there any way to shut down the ridiculous propaganda that doctors give vaccines in order to get rich?
There are probably naturopathic practioners who earn more dispensing worthless homeopathic sugar pills than real doctors that actually do some good.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 12:39 pm
amother [ Denim ] wrote:
I told doc that we saw improvement with the diet.
She gave me the most condescending smile ever and said neh, there's is no relation. Pinworms are caught when children play together closely.

Because it sounded like you were saying sugar causes pinworms. Which is so obviously not true that yeah, it would be hard not to look a bit bemused. Food doesn't magically turn into animals.

On a second or third reading, I could get, "oh OK maybe she's saying that eating sugar can make a pinworm infection worse/ can make it easier for pinworms to survive in the digestive tract if they are introduced" from your post. Which, OK, that's not so far out there and some doctors do recommend cutting sugar as one of several steps to treat pinworm infestation.

But I wouldn't judge the doctor for not understanding you perfectly the first time around. Especially not if she's always been respectful and caring before.
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