What if it’s all a test

amother

Honeydew

Thu, Jun 20 2019, 11:28 pm

polka dots wrote:

I’m a pro vaccine as it comes. This topic gets me boiling inside. Especially since some of the people I know personally who don’t vaccine also irk me in other areas. We don’t see eye to eye on many levels. So whenever there is a vaccine debate I’ll always be the one who gets all heated up about it.
Yesterday I was having a moment where I thought “what if it’s all a test?” What if Hashem is ready to send mashiach and he is giving us one final test to see if sinas Chinum is eradicated from our hearts. It all started from sinas chinum, maybe this is the tikun we need to make it all better? What if this is a test where there is a situation where everyone is heavily invested as it is close to home in everyone’s heart, a test that has potential to turn Jew against Jew and Hashem is watching how we will handle this. Whatever is going on up there in heaven, I don’t know. But I do know that I need to step back from all the hate and truly love and respect each and every Jew.
I am vaccinating to do my hishtadlis, no one else’s decisions can change what Hashem has planned should happen to me and my family.
I also read a study (for those that believe in scientific studies) that the more we argue with anti vaxxers, the stronger they will stick to their believe.
So I’m stepping out of the “he said she said game”, I’m doing my hishtadlus, and leaving my health up to Hashem.

[u]

A little off topic, but the bolded is pretty silly. Very few people change sides in any fierce argument. Do you really believe the anti vaxxers are wired in such a way that they, and only they get more firm in their beliefs when engaged in a debate? People don't really listen to the other side when it comes to religion, politics, consider the possibility their kids aren't perfect, and a few others.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jun 20 2019, 11:48 pm

I already posted this on a different thread but I'll say it again.

Mother of a baby on chemo here. No hate. just lots of additional heartache, stress and tension that could've easily been avoided.
Test from Hashem? thanks, got plenty of those...

and I do not engage with antivaxers irl. let them spew there shtissim onto other people. I've got more important things to do with my time, energy and mental capacity.

It's degrading (yet appreciated) getting a pre-screening phone call every week from clinic making sure we weren't exposed & being questioned again every time we walk in.
It's horrible being stopped at the ED entrance when they see us walking in with chasidisha garb.

Not even talking about the fact that we have to think and calculate every time we want to go somewhere other then to the doctor...

Hate? No. just frustration. Let. This. Outbreak. End. Now. Director

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 1:06 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I would like to see one anti-vax poster here apologize for putting you through this. We are always being accused of cruelty to them. I might see them in a slightly kinder light if they could at least own up to the effect they have on you and your baby.
I read an article by a really callous anti-vaxer who said that medically fragile people were not her problem. It is really hard to like someone who is basically engaging in bioterrorism.

polka dots

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 3:22 am

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

True, the study said exactly that, wasn’t specifically only for vaccines

southernbubby

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 7:29 am

What plays out IRL is often fighting within marriages and within families. The NY Times (I think) had as article about people who decided to skip the family Seder because of this issue.
I agree that children are getting hurt because no one wants to let their kids play with them.
Personally, because I was raised by a mother who grew up in fear of catching polio, and there are people my age who caught polio before the vaccine came out, I understand that parents feel like they have to protect their children, even if non-vaccinated children are being hurt and excluded.

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 7:47 am

I don't hate non-vaxxers, and I've tried as hard as possible to engage with them seriously, responding to their concerns and their questions.

However, two things:

First, I think that anti-vaxxers need to be called out when they deliberately lie, or even when they unknowingly pass on others' lies that could easily be uncovered. For example, there was a thread on here a couple of days ago, supposedly claiming that Gardasil caused a 2.3% incidence of autoimmune disorders compared to a placebo. The poster included a link to the drug insert. It took me two minutes to read the drug insert and realize that BOTH groups -- the ones that had received Gardasil and the ones that had received a placebo -- had a 2.3% incidence of autoimmune disorders. There was no difference. That was actually evidence that the vaccine is safe! But the poster either relied on the fact that most people wouldn't bother to follow the link, which is unconscionable, or she doesn't have the ability to read the drug insert and understand it, in which case, she shouldn't be posting threads that make these claims.

Second, I think that sometimes a little tough love is in order. I love my fellow Jews and it hurts me to know that so many of them are being caught up in the snares of quacks and swindlers. Some of them even become quacks and swindlers themselves. I mentioned on another thread the chiropractor who had tried to convince me that my uterine fibroids had arisen from misaligned energy fields and that my symptoms could be alleviated by realigning my energy fields. (I may have misworded the nonsense, but it doesn't make a difference to my point.) This chiropractor was a frum woman. In other ways, which I will not ever go into either in public or private, she caused the state of my health to worsen rather than improve. I know that others have been harmed by such quacks, and yes, this bothers me. In particular, as regards vaccination, they convince their patients that vaccines will harm them. This leads to the loss of herd immunity, with the consequences that we see today. So I think that we need to call out the nonsense when we read or hear it. There is a time to be gentle and a time to speak up.

So if others have noticed that I have become less gentle towards anti-vaxxers recently, that is why.

JoyInTheMorning

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 7:56 am

Regarding whether people change sides in an argument: I actually do often change my position after finding out more. I'm constantly reading and learning. I don't consider changing my mind to be a sign of weakness: No researcher worth her salt doesn't ever change her mind. As far as vaccines are concerned, the more I read, the more pro-vaccine I become.

As far as what other people do: we have plenty of evidence that people change their minds. Advertising campaigns change minds. Social media campaigns change minds. We wouldn't have lost herd immunity if so many people hadn't changed their minds.

imasoftov

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 9:32 am

polka dots wrote:

Yesterday I was having a moment where I thought “what if it’s all a test?” What if Hashem is ready to send mashiach and he is giving us one final test ...

What if the test was one of the already banned topics here and we already failed? Or what if the test is ongoing but it's one of the *other* issues we still are permitted to (and do) fight about here or in real life?

Why this particular issue?

polka dots

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 9:39 am

When we think about things in a healthy way we are always open to hearing more and we can change are mind. Even regarding vaccines, I know many people that were undecided and skeptical. They asked around, spoke to doctors and did some research and came to a conclusion in a healthy way. But sometimes people take a thought and turn it into a belief and then into a religion and they are so stuck that I don’t think bringing proofs and explaining and quoting helps. There is just no reasoning.

polka dots

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 9:47 am

imasoftov wrote:

What if your right? Maybe? Was just a thought. Sorry I don’t have “research and data and statistics or studies “ to back it up.
Point is that I took my arguing to the next level and spoke a lot of loshen hora and thought Hashem would be proud if I can work on that

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 9:54 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I’m so sorry that your going through this, may HaShem heel your baby real quick. It is only normal that you are hurt by the anti vaxxers since it’s causing you additional stress, tension etc Ontop of everything your already dealing with. I am happy that I’m not the one causing it. I want to mention that I was talking about being rude to each other and not about being hurt. Being hurt is more than normal being hurt is allowed by the Torah. I was referring to the hate and nasty comments that come after which the Torah does not allow. Your actually an example of what I was trying to say. Someone who is personally affected by the anti vaxxers yet doesn’t allow it to get to hate.
Kol Hakovod to you!!
I will personally daven for you, your child and for the rest of Klal Yisroel!

imasoftov

Fri, Jun 21 2019, 10:08 am

polka dots wrote:

My response was also just a thought. I didn't ask for the research and such because I don't know how to get HKBH to sign a consent form to participate in the research.