The torah doesn't make sense to me

ShishKabob

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 12:28 pm

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

This has nothing to do with your original question.

You won't find answers by veering off topic.

If you would like to understand how there can be machlokes with legitimate opposing opinions, that question has been addressed at length.

However, you won't get good answers by asking rhetorical questions (or expecting simplistic black and white answers)

Which is why I almost never answer these type of haskafa questions on imamother and will not be posting further on this thread.

Excellent posts, Thanks for contributing. These threads always make me scratch my head.

ectomorph

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 12:31 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

Excellent posts, Thanks for contributing. These threads always make me scratch my head.

Yup
Amother dodger blue hit the nail on the head.

The op sounds like a high schooler complaining "what's the point of trigonometry, it doesn't make sense to anyone anyway".

Well, if you put in the work, the time and the learning, perhaps you will understand why there is an entire corpus of writings about it.

marina

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 12:43 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I struggle with my faith. I've have a question that have been bothering me lately.

1. Why is the torah so cryptic about the halachos? Sometimes the torah wants to make a point, but instead of saying it, it writes another point in an unusual way and we then learn out from there the actual point. For example the torah writes 3 separate times not to cook a goat in it's mothers milk. The It torah is telling us:

1. Don't cook meat and milk together.
2. Don't eat milk and meat together.
3. Don't benefit (for example sell) products containing milk and meat.

The obvious question is why didn't the torah simply say what it wanted us not to do? This is awfully confusing and in fact there is a big machlokes what hashem is telling us. The mishna debates whether hashem was telling us this law applies to all domesticated kosher mammals, all kosher mammals, or all kosher animals. There are over 23,000 pesukim in the torah. It seems like an additional 2 pesukim would have made these halachos very clear. Actually, they aren't even an extra 2 pesukim. The original posuk was repeated 3 times. Just take out the 2 repition and replace it with....what it was actually trying to say. I just don't get it and it seems bizarre.

An even better question is why would Hashem hold people accountable for not following laws that were written cryptically and passed down only to a select few.

It's like "Oh, here's the blueprint for the world! Here are the directions for how you must live your life! wait, uh, hold on... surprise- they are written in code! And only a very select few can explain this code to you! And you must listen to them. Or Hashem will be very unhappy and devastate your families and destroy your crops and etc etc "

ShishKabob

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 12:51 pm

marina wrote:

This is untrue and false.
The basic laws are not written cryptically. they just come with a handbook that you need to use along with it. The Torah Shebichsav is not a freestanding manual.
And it's not written in code where simple laymen don't understand it.
Don't give me this baloney these days when you can access everything in simple English, Spanish, Chinese, Arabic and so on. You have books on every topic available. And you have Google.
And last but not least that is why we have Talmidei Chachamim and Rabbonim that can help out those that are illiterate.

marina

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 12:55 pm

Here are the basic answers OP will get in this thread:

1. It doesn't have to make sense. Just believe. I'm sure you didn't think of that idea yet! Even though you use sense and logic in evaluating literally every other option life gives you, don't use sense and logic in anything related to religion. That's why it's called faith! AHA!

2. Your question shows some flaw about you. If you were as good as me, you wouldn't have these questions. Perhaps you like to challenge authority or just get attention or maybe you have emotional problems. All three? Yes?

3. You just haven't found the right rabbi yet. Try Rav Blah Blah, he is amaaaaazing and his torahonline tapes are just perfect, here is a link that will not answer any of your questions and just frustrate you.

These are the basic answers I think. Each one has some twists available, like the "package deal" twist- believe in things that don't make sense because you want the family and shabbos table so it's a package deal.

What else am I missing? Any other answers?

marina

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 12:58 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

Just take a minute and think about her question.

If you wanted people to not mix dairy and meat, would you write a direction that says don't cook a goat in its mother's milk? And then have an oral tradition that this means separate dishes for dairy and meat? And spend a whole chapter on the descendants of Eisav instead?

How does that make any sense?

ShishKabob

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 1:18 pm

marina wrote:

Because you asked respectfully, I will answer this one.

Our human mind is very limited within it's scope of understanding. It's limited only in regard to a Higher Being and Higher Intelligence. Other than that we are the most intellectual beings on planet earth.

And you chose to give an example of something we yidden call a chok. A chok is something that we can't understand within the realm of our human minds. Not withstanding we must follow and heed to it despite the lack of understanding.

I think that this was the basic flaw of the 'karaim' Karaites. They followed the letter of the written law, however, because they didn't believe in the oral law and did not incorporate it within day to day life, they veered off the right path and were not considered the real yidden and will have the consequences of that.

The Rambam writes that the highest level of understanding is: That we understand that there are certain things that we can't understand.

I'm not here to argue with you. You can find way more interesting people to debate this with. I'm not a such a learned woman and I don't have a PhD in this topic. However, I do know basic tenets of the jewish faith.

amother

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 2:03 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

Actually, whether it's a chok or not is beside the point. Let's assume it's a chok. Hashem could have told us:

1. Don't cook milk and meat.
2. Don't Eat milk and meat together.
3. Don't benefit from milk and meat together.

Instead the torah wrote 3 times not to cook a goat in it's mothers milk. It's just bizarre that hashem communicated these laws by saying something entirely different. What's more is that it has led to confusion of what hashem actually wanted us to do. Now the ashkinazem do this, the sefardim do that, and people born in parts of Europe do something else. Is this really what hashem wanted?
As a side note the posuk is not really a chok. In the late middle ages, young goats were cooked in their mothers milk in an attempt to obtain supernatural powers to increase their flock. Considering the torah was written around that time, the posuk actually makes sense and is not a chok.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 2:16 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

As a side note the posuk is not really a chok. In the late middle ages, young goats were cooked in their mothers milk in an attempt to obtain supernatural powers to increase their flock. Considering the torah was written around that time, the posuk actually makes sense and is not a chok.

Exactly ! And it is written where are also instructions about pilgrimage , so it for sure connected to the rituals and not to what to eat or how .

PinkFridge

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 2:34 pm

marina wrote:

Well, let's go back to Matan Torah.
The way Torah was taught and learned then was with utmost clarity and authenticity of transmission. It continued that way for quite some time.
It's OUR actions that led to galus and the breaking of the transmission.
But it could and did work. And it's pretty amazing how, for all the differences in nuance, we all have so much in common.

amother

Seashell

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 2:59 pm

marina wrote:

But the Jews in Eretz Israel at that time didn’t do what was written in the Torah explicitly. And the prophets constantly talked about that . That’s why they WERE punished and dispersed.
Not about eating milk with meat or head-covering and many other things that Jews are today do which are also nowhere in the written Torah mentioned .

PinkFridge

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 3:14 pm

marina wrote:

What if you want people to not just treat the Torah as something that's a to do list but something to be ameilim in? Which includes the learning and the work of doing.

imorethanamother

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 3:23 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Oy vey. c'mon, seriously??? Well why did hashem communicate thru a pipe knowing that we'd all hear it differently? There are many views that are simply contradictory. Was Noach a big tzddik or just a tzadik for his dor? The answer is, it's a machlokes. These views directly oppose each other. They can't both be right from a human logic perspective.

Okay, let's discuss:
What about this problem bothers you? That's there's no one answer? That Noach either is great or he isn't? What bothers you about the fact that it's ambivalent?

Also, another question: Do you read literary classics? Why can't Shakespeare just say, "Macbeth is evil"? Why did he need those three witches? Would Macbeth have done what he did if the witches didn't tell him those things? Did those witches even exist? Is Macbeth evil, or a victim of circumstance, or did circumstance arise because he willed them so?

I love nuance and complexity. And I love it that the argument so often isn't about the answer at all, it's about how different people view the world and view God. That's what's so beautiful about humanity, that's it's not black and white.

imorethanamother

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 3:27 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I can't tell, but this particular halacha seems to bother you quite a bit.

I love literature, so let's discuss this. What's the difference between God saying:

"Don't cook a kid in its mother's milk"

And

"Don't eat milk and meat together."

Think about it from a poetic perspective. What is inherent in the structure of the first sentence that you would never be able to glean from the second sentence? And what else, besides for dietary laws, is the first sentence telling you? Where else can we apply this command? What "story" in Tanach does the first sentence remind you of?

imorethanamother

Mon, Jun 24 2019, 3:34 pm

marina wrote:

The ten commandments aren't written in code. They're pretty darn straightforward.