To say or not to say?

amother

Copper

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 8:05 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

How was it handled in your case?

Not the poster you asked.

We found out that the chosson sat in jail for murder. We were told that we were not allowed to say anything once they signed the tenyoim. AAMOF, the tenyoim was kept quiet because he had had another tenyoim before this, and the girls family found out there.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 9:46 am

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

There's a rabbi out there who would rather have a girl marry a murderer than break an engagement?!?!
I can only hope this is sarcastic and I'm missing out.

amother

Copper

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 9:59 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

There's a rabbi out there who would rather have a girl marry a murderer than break an engagement?!?!
I can only hope this is sarcastic and I'm missing out.

There are many. I am not being sarcastic. It is strongly prohibited to break an engagement. This is why a rov must be consulted.

ShishKabob

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 10:22 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

There's a rabbi out there who would rather have a girl marry a murderer than break an engagement?!?!
I can only hope this is sarcastic and I'm missing out.

Please don't buy into everything that posters post online. They write it deliberately to make erliche, true Rabbonim look bad.
You're not missing out anything. This Rabbi is not from a Torah perspective at all. For all you know this is made up. Call your own Rabbi and confirm.

amother

Bronze

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:12 am

ShishKabob wrote:

I know quite well that my own rabbi would insist on breaking off an engagement with a murderer. I'm wondering what kind of rabbi wouldn't.

ectomorph

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:15 am

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

There are many. I am not being sarcastic. It is strongly prohibited to break an engagement. This is why a rov must be consulted.

Of course you're amother.

I'm sure there's a crazy person out there who calls himself a rabbi and says all sorts of crAzy things

No this is not normal, the dayanim in Satmar or anywhere would not permit it, and you are using anonymity to slur against rabbonim

There's even proof in this one: the other engagement was broken after the tenoyim when they found out

amother

Copper

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:17 am

ShishKabob wrote:

You are rich. You are saying I am putting down my Rabbi to make him look bad. You have some nerve because you are putting down my Rabbi without even knowing who he is. How dare you say he isn't from a Torah perspective?

You obviously don't know the halacha involved, yet you are a know it all. I will discount everything you say in the future because you make things up.

ectomorph

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:20 am

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

The proof that you are lying is that the other engagement was broken when they found out. Clearly rabbonim don't hold that way.

amother

Copper

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:20 am

ectomorph wrote:

The other engagement was broken off before the tenyoim was signed AFAIK.

I am amother because of the personal details. I am not slurring the rabbonim. This is what the Rabbi said. FYI, this Rabbi is well respected .

ShishKabob

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:22 am

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

The part that I am rich is true! Thank you

Listen, what you're saying makes zero sense. Unless he is a murderer because he embarrassed someone in public and made them red in the face. Other than that I can't think of anything else.
And please don't listen to anything that I write. I am a random lady online.

amother

Copper

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 11:29 am

ShishKabob wrote:

Where do you get off insulting a Rabbi because you don't like what he said?

It makes zero sense to you because you don't have the learning this Rabbi does. You really are a nervy person to say that an orthodox rabbi makes no sense. Your post is despicable.

Isn't there something in the rules today doesn't allow posters to put down other's orthodox rabbi? I assure you that he said this.

You should admit you don't know and spoke out of turn. You have lost all credibility.

notshanarishona

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 12:32 pm

amother [ Copper ] wrote:

The only situation where I could think of their being a heiter to hide such information is if the chosson was falsely accused and determined to be innocent or if it was some type of accidental negligence such as a car accident. Otherwise there is no way that would not be toeles for a Kallah to know.
Anyways , the whole story sounds fishy . If someone got a sentence for murder, it's typically not a short one and you can't just explain anyway what you have been doing the last 5-10 years of your life. It's the type of thing that should be easy to find out.

imasoftov

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 5:08 am

Since I still haven't seen the source for the unbreakability of tenoyim, I personally have no idea if there are exceptions to that or not or whether it's impossible that a rabbi ruled as claimed.

Although if a murder conviction is not an valid reason to break tenoyim, how is it that "he had had another tenyoim before this, and the girls family found out"? But maybe one rabbi ruled that the first tenoyim can be broken and another didn't get that far, only ruling that the person who knew about the conviction couldn't disclose it.

But then I wonder, is it not permitted to disclose after tenoyim because one may not break tenoyim and so there's no toelet, or because it is possible to break tenoyim and we don't want that to happen, or maybe while tenoyim shouldn't be broken people do anyway. Which makes me wonder, if a women got married a second time without a get, the second marriage is considered to have never happened and does not need a get. If a couple breaks tenoyim and gets married to other people, are there any consequences or is it well you shouldn't have done that but if you did so anyway, the later marriage to others is valid?

Just one more question (for now): what would happen if someone took the standard text of tenoyim and removed any language about being unbreakable (if there is any) and added new language permitting it to be broken under certain conditions (say both sides agree, or one side gets a beit din to agree) would that work? Or would a (or some) rabbis insist that the families tear up the first one and sign the standard one?

imasoftov

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 5:19 am

notshanarishona wrote:

I also considered that, but sometimes a person is tried for murder and the jury only convicts them of a lesser charge, or people use "murder" not in the legal sense, e.g. ploni did kill almoni, but the trial was for something not as lurid.

Although I wonder if there's really no need to know that one's spouse was accused (whether no trial happened or tried and acquitted) as there still could be civil actions (c.f OJ Simpson who was acquitted in a criminal trial but found liable for damages in a civil trial).

amother

Copper

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 6:27 am

ectomorph wrote:

Amother copper, you are the one with no credibility. No one forces a girl to marry a murderer.

I would guess the kallah knew. I think the first tenyoim was called off because her family found out. The second tenyoim was quick and quiet because they didn't want her family finding out.

The Rabbi married me. He insisted DH disclose things to me before we signed the tenyoim. None of which mattered to me. I suppose murder is a biggie and must be disclosed.

ETA the things he had DH tell me were pretty minor

amother

Copper

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 6:41 am

chestnut wrote:

Copper, were they married and divorced right away? How were the kallah and her family able to put on such show?

The couple were married and together one yom tov - maybe two. We go away for this yom tov annually, and the couple were together. The next year, she wasn't there. The marriage was of short duration.

The wife was a lovely person. I never spoke to the husband. She seemed perfectly normal but older. Of course, I never asked her anything about her wedding.

amother

Copper

Wed, Jun 26 2019, 6:50 am

imasoftov wrote:

I wondered also if maybe he was convicted of felony murder or he was young at the time or got convicted of a lesser offense that he was charged with like conspiracy to commit murder.

He was in his mid 40s or 50s. He could have done a sizable stretch. Honestly, these aren't questions I ask IRL.

I did ask if there was a fire because the second tenyoim was rushed and hushed. I was only joking and didn't expect this story.