S/O: girls "rarely think at all"

amother

Brunette

Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:56 pm

smileforamile wrote:

Can you at least list which shiur answered it (if possible) so that those who are interested can listen?

Okay, I'm trying, but I actually can't find the shiur I heard right now. It wasn't the point of the shiur, it was a side point, which is why I can't remember which one it was.

This shiur shows up in a direct google search:

https://www.aish.com/sp/ph/Why......html

This shiur, I'm listening to it now, actually uses the Rambam, Kuzari, and Ibn Ezra to answer the question, which is now getting me upset all over again, because this was totally accessible to my teachers! The answer I heard is different, and actually discusses the Torah being a blueprint for this world, and brings the answer up in context with another esoteric (as it seems to me) halachic dilemma in the gemara. I loved that answer because it has other real-world applications that are valid and in use.

amother

Brunette

Mon, Jul 01 2019, 6:03 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

Brunette, would you share what the question was?

And I want to stress that I'm not a particularly intelligent person. This question isn't mind-blowing or particularly complicated. The fact that a simple question is often met with extreme opposition is part of the problem.

Maybe it's because people don't like saying, "I don't know." Maybe it's because people are scared to ask something they feel is so obviously basic. Maybe the answer they gave was more confusing to me, and I didn't understand it.

It's because girls are discouraged from asking, that we all have to live up to this ideal of being obedient, ever believing in Hashem no matter what, through any nisayon. Over the years, I've been called strident, tough, rebellious, strong, harsh, feminist, when in my mind I'm honestly anything but. (Well, I think I'm a feminist) But it's a way to push you away, to make an example out of you to other girls, out of some kind of primal fear that one day, if we allow the smaller questions, the real Why Do Bad Things Happen unanswerable question (among others) will come up and land everyone into drugs and brothels.

leah233

Mon, Jul 01 2019, 6:08 pm

smileforamile wrote:

(1)You said that many of the people who go OTD are those with difficult lives, and the ones who stay tend to have easier lives. First of all, I think that is a gross generalization to the point of complete untruth.

(2)But even if it's true: is that a problem with frumkeit? Or are life struggles just a true litmus test of emunah and bitachon? Yes, it might be easy to stay and follow the party line when things are easy, but when they get tougher, how do you react?

(3)There are many people who have gone through challenges and maintained their emunah. Others have questioned G-d, but are still here.

(1)These type of observation are always generalizations

(2)It is usually a neutral observation depending on the context. Life struggles are not the true litmus test of emunah and bitachon. But it certainly says a lot more for someone if they stayed frum under adversity then if they didn't

(3)True.

My point to tan amother is that people who undergo adversity are more likely to end up questioning religion than embracing it for the comfort it provides.(her claim was people believe because it provides comfort in times of adversity)

If anything is bothering you personally about my point please PM me.

amother

Purple

Mon, Jul 01 2019, 6:14 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Looks like an interesting question that completely does not bother me. I could see why it would be very difficult for someone to deal with.

For me, it's sufficient to say that while of course we're trying to earn schar, the real purpose of why we're here has nothing to do with the afterlife, and everything to do with being representatives of G-d's will. I know that this is completely oversimplified and would not be acceptable to most people. It's just a question that doesn't seem to have practical ramifications for me, so I can live with not knowing. Now, it's nice to know, but not crucial for me.

If someone had told you, "I don't know," when you were a student, how would you have reacted?

Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 6:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Brunette

Mon, Jul 01 2019, 6:55 pm

smileforamile wrote:

The question bothered me because for such a huge concept that everything seemed to be geared towards, the fact that the Torah actually never bothered to mention it directly was concerning. Like, here's this huge major tenet of our faith, but Torah SheBichsav doesn't mention it. It also struck me as mostly magical - like we knew nearly nothing about it, and therefore we filled it with puppies and unicorns. I wanted something more concrete.

Ultimately, no one said "I don't know." To that or other questions. They guessed an answer. Perhaps they even chanced upon the right answer, but I didn't want an off-the-cuff answer. I wanted a real one, written down somewhere. Really brilliant people can point you to a sefer of some kind. I didn't have access to those people, so it started to feel like none of these answers were real.

I still have questions, and they're still mostly dumb ones. But I'm lucky enough to know people who can tell me to read this book and learn this gemara, and the internet now exists, so it's all a lot easier. But the sentiment of many people who think that girls don't take learning seriously and just ask questions to be troublemakers is the problem I grew up with. By the time I was old enough to have this attitude throw me off the derech, I was already married.

amother

Copper

Mon, Jul 01 2019, 7:02 pm

Brunette im the one who wrote about HS girls asking questions to derail a class. Sorry if it was triggering to you, that wasn't my intention at all.
Dr. David Leiberman is a phenomenal speaker. His shiurim are very clear and they are on the topic of emunah etc they tend to get very deep. The audience ask questionsn some of which are very fascinating. Ill warn you they can be addictive! They are available on torah anytime.

Aylat

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:29 am

sequoia wrote:

How is it possible to “put ideas into someone’s head”? Surely every human being, when they are told something, asks in return “how do you know? What is the proof?” That is the natural response.

Children want to know everything. Teens don’t express their curiosity the same way, but they also do. Maybr it’s different in a secular high school where there’s no set ideology. I certainly thought very deeply about things in high school (that’s why I chose philosophy as my humanities subject, and wrote my senior essay on Aristotle). It seems weird that just growing up in a frum community would cause girls to turn off their natural human curiosity. Anyway, I disagree with the premise. Girls do think deeply, but it is possible that fear and peer pressure prevent them from expressing themselves.

If you’re not encouraged to think and research on your own, there’s really no point to school.

The first bolded. I don't know if my kids are particularly unusual. but they ask questions about everything and anything. That's what makes being around kids so fun! (and exhausting!) I do see that a lot of teens are closed off from asking questions in school, either because they are the A crowd who just want to pass the test, or because they're turned off from school and teachers in general, but outside school they still do a lot of questioning about a bunch of different things. And re the second bolded - that is my main aim as a high school teacher, to get my pupils to think.

Aylat

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:35 am

keym wrote:

I know someone who freaked out when her 3 year old asked "why is the sky blue". Response: "cuz Hashem made it that way". "But why Mommy". Friend freaked out. Some thing's wrong with my kid that he keeps thinking about this.

When my mum didn't know the answer to my question, "why is the sky blue?" she found me the phone number of the meteorological services and encouraged me to phone and ask them (this was pre-internet). I don't remember how old I was exactly, young elementary. Kids ask questions!

Forrealx

Tue, Jul 02 2019, 8:03 am

I grew up completly secular and I was and I'am asking a lot of questions. I read a lot and was always seeking for information on the internet, books and papers. I need to think, and to do research. At the time I was newly observant some sluchim totally said ''you need to do this because that is how you should do it'' I was also ''why....?''. And I was not satisfied with '' because the sluchan aruch said so''. I literally thought for a long time that every frum person was like Chabad till I was meeting with non-lubavitchers. For instance, I thought for a long time you need to wear a long nightgown in bed till I've learned that some very litvishe women where sleeping in trousers and shirts. I was like wut... In the beginning I thought they were less frum later I found out that is just a custom to wair fully covered also in bed with a tichel...
And if I attend a shiur I'm that annoying person in the front row who is asking questions and think about things. I mail sometimes back to the rav or rebbetzen after a shiur and they are like ''woah good question''. I'm the one who asks questions they need to look up.

Judaism is about asking questions, we ask questions on the seder, the whole gemorre is about asking questions and finding an answer we have levels of understanding and sometimes girls have also the understanding. For instance I find it nuts that I can't learn talmud but I listen to shiurim and so on about the Talmud and I learn with DH sometimes however he is more knowledged in gemorre then me, he is still suprised how easy I get the discussions. Once I've was learning whole the part of Migdal Bavel and just talked about it on shul with a rav when that parasha was read and it is still suprising for them... If I struggle with faith or faith questions (and I do) I look for or a scientific/philosphical approach or a mystical approach or just a moderate frum apporoach and I see where I can fit in.

Like I read Lopes Cardozo and Sacks and those are helping me with some struggles where for instance Chassidus helps me with TH.