If you are a convert or BT, how would you react...

amother

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 8:16 am

If your child went OTD ie did the same thing you did but in reverse?
I recently sat through a lecture of a convert, the way she described her parents she made them seem really dumb, I dunno maybe they are. She was just very condescending in describing their belief system and how she knows they’ll never come to terms with her transformation so she had to find a new family, yada yada.
So I asked her, privately at the end, what she would do if her child sat her down and told her what she told her parents. That they no longer believed what she believed and are choosing a different path.
She was very uncomfortable with the question. At first she tried giving the pat Frum answer of “I’d try to figure out why they were doing it”, which is classic double-standard. Because obviously if you convert to Judaism it’s all logical and true but if you stop believing there must be some emotional reason. Then I said “you pretty much threw your parents beliefs in their face, yet you want their acceptance, would you be able to give this to your child?”
So in the end she just said “let’s hope I’ll never have to find out”.
Sigh. So disappointing. But so not surprising. I always wondered what goes through the minds of BTs and converts and I guess now I know. Or do I?
Please tell me there are BTs and converts out there who know what it’s like to choose a different path than the one you grew up in, and would be able to still love and accept their children no matter what.

chestnut

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 8:23 am

I don't think it's that different between BT/converts and FFB in that everyone sees returning to Judaism as praiseworthy and logical, but dropping it - illogical and a sign of emotional instability.
I also think that it's different between BA and converts as the latter often actually dropped the parents' religion and chose a different one, while BT "just" went from a secular life to observant.
In any case, I think many people would feel heartache (understandably), but would try to maintain good relationship with the child. It's a sign of our times when we don't sit shiva for kids who leave the path.

amother

Violet

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 8:28 am

Giyoret speaking.

Firstly, I think you're being unfairly harsh in your judgement of the woman who told her personal story. I've also had the opportunity to tell my story publicly numerous times and just so you know, laying your personal decisions and details of your life out for a whole room of women to hear and, yes, judge, is not easy to do.

Tbh I think going through my own journey has made me more open to other people (kids included) choosing alternative routes and I'm always genuinely interested in how people come to find their 'truth'. I'll always love my kids unconditionally, no matter what. Even if CHV"S they take a route which is in total opposition to how I live my life. Because firstly I'm their mother and I believe that of all the people in the world a mother should always love her own flesh and blood no matter what. Secondly, if I sever ties with my kids I'll never be able to influence them or allow an open door to return home again.

amother

Mustard

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 8:37 am

my dh is a bt. he would understand if our kids went off the derech. He's also pretty cynical of the frum community and can't wait until kids grow up and he doesn't need to be near a frum school anymore. He plans to move to the boondocks. Chances are if our kids go off that they'll come back. I'm an ffb and would be much more devastated to put it mildly.

amother

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 8:43 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Just curious. If it’s so hard to tell your story, why put yourself through that? It bothers me in general that the community simultaneously puts converts and BTs on this lofty pedestal yet at the same time considers them beneath them.

Frenchfry

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 8:44 am

I think that I'd always love my child, but I'd be sad knowing that I have something special that they chose not to have.

If my child was chv"s doing something physical that would harm them, then I'd worry and do whatever I could to get them to stop.

I would have similar heartache if they were denying themselves spiritual health.

I hope.

amother

Orchid

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 8:53 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

I am FFB but I agree with your philosophy. Your children are your flesh and blood no matter what path they choose. And if you cut them off, you have no chance of them returning home (literally and figuratively).

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 8:58 am

I'm FFB and I have enough struggles and difficulties understanding some things in the frum world that I would understand a child trying to find a truth beyond. I'd be more sad because of the division that might happen in my family. I so want my children to love and care for each other and be close to each other, and I think extreme differences can be harder to navigate. I know I should probably care more about the truth of Torah, but I think it would hurt me more to worry that their families might be alienated from each other.

amother

Violet

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 8:59 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Because some of the best and most worthwhile things in life are hard to do. But the difficulty of standing up and talking in front of many people is completely overshadowed by the opportunity to do kiddush Hashem, remind people who were born Jews of what a zchus it is, and hopefully inspire them to find out for themselves why being a Jew is such a positive thing that I was willing to suffer and give up a lot to get to where I am today.

My community definitely doesn't consider me any less worthy because I'm a convert. And if they did, I'd find a different community.

amother

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 9:19 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

I appreciate your perspective.
Some more questions if you don’t mind
Do you see any hypocrisy at all, or even flaws, in the Frum community? How do you deal with that?
Also, this woman seemed convinced that she “found a new family, brothers sisters and even a mom.” In this really sheltered community.
I live in that community. I know those types of people. I know that there is no way they consider her family. She is there chessed case. No question about it. How can she be so blind to that? Even when people were discussing her after the speech I heard the condescension. And the racism (she’s Latina).
How can a person live like that?

amother

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 9:21 am

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

A family friend is a BT and two of her boys are no longer frum. She finds it very difficult to understand as she struggled and fought to become frum, and now they're rejecting it all.

But doesn’t she understand that just how she chose her own path, different than her parents, they did the exact same thing? That’s what baffles me. More than when an ffb parent doesn’t understand. Therein lies my confusion.

amother

Azure

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 9:23 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Hi, I am a BT. I also have DD19 who while respectful at home, when not at home is not keeping things as much any more. I have made it clear that she needs to not do Shabbos Melachos when visiting in front of younger siblings but that I accept her lifestyle choice. I fully accept my DC’s choices whatever they are, why would their religious choices be different.

amother

Violet

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 9:33 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

For sure I see flaws and hypocrisy. However these flaws and hypocrisy (like looking down on converts) are contrary to Judaism. I joined the Jewish people because it's the truth. Not because Jews are all perfect. I saw a lot more hypocrisy in my previous life.

I can't speak for this specific woman, but to decide without really knowing the inside story or the true nature of their relationship, that she's a mere chessed case is pretty harsh. I don't know her so I can't tell you how she can live like that. I can only speak for myself.

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 9:36 am

Quote:

this lofty pedestal yet at the same time considers them beneath them.

Lol, it sounds to me like you are doing just that -- expecting them to have some wonderful, amazing answer at their fingertips to a situation that all religious Jews would find difficult, and then somehow expressing disappointment at all BTs and converts when one of their responses doesn't satisfy you.

amother

Seafoam

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:10 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I honestly don't understand the confusion here. She converted because she thinks Torah is true. She'd be upset if her kids stopped keeping Torah because she thinks Torah is true.

If my parents were in the mob and I was a law-abiding citizen, would you expect me to be OK with my child joining the mob?

I'm not saying that's a similar situation, just making a point.

amother

Rose

Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:45 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Why does this concern you?
There is a special mitzvah in the Torah to be kind to converts. Why did you have to question her and make her feel uncomfortable. How is this to your benefit?