If you are a convert or BT, how would you react...

amother

Brunette

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 11:05 am

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

THIS! Exactly!! I don't know why on earth a BT/convert loses the 'right' to be upset if their kid goes OTD.

You are right, but at the same time (as a convert) I do understand the question.

A convert must clearly feel very strongly about Judiasm being the correct path in order to subject themselves to the process of conversion, so just like any other Jew, they obvously want their children to stay on the right path and would not feel different about that in comparison with someone who was born Jewish.

However, the convert may also have rejected the path their parents have raised them in, with or without their parents' support. With this in mind, I don't find it strange that someone might wonder what if the convert's child also rejected their upbringing and chose to follow a different religion.

Everyone would have their own unique perspective on the issue. Maybe this would be influenced by the way they were treated by their own parents when they converted to Judiasm (some would react similarly to their parents, others would react differently. How did they feel about the way their own parents reacted?)

urban gypsy

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 11:06 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

We as frum Jews don't consider not being frum an acceptable choice. We tolerate it as needed.

I think the confusion is coming from different definitions of "acceptance"
I think it's important to "accept" it in the sense of confronting reality and not trying to deny, whitewash, or twist it around
But just like the child can make their own choice, they can't demand that their parents be happy about it. Respecting feelings goes both ways. Both the child's feelings and the parent's feelings can coexist

saralem

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 11:31 am

BT here. And 2 kids not observant anymore. ( others are)
I got to make my choices. They get to make theirs. Of course I’d prefer them all to be frum but they are my children. My beloved children. And I will love them no matter what. And hold them dear to me regardless of their choices. Despite my mesirus nefesh in becoming frum myself.

amother

Maroon

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 12:26 pm

I would accept any choice my children make as long as they are happy and healthy and productive. I"ve had to accept one child becoming way more frum than I am currently and believe it or not I found that hard, but she is happy that way, so OK.

I've encountered a belief where FFB people think that converts or BT's must be unstable or otherwise emotionally unwell for making this choice in life Can't Believe It

This is a long discussion but this is all I have to write now.......

amother

Violet

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 1:30 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

However, the convert may also have rejected the path their parents have raised them in, with or without their parents' support. With this in mind, I don't find it strange that someone might wonder what if the convert's child also rejected their upbringing and chose to follow a different religion.

I most certainly did reject my parents' path but they really can't complain because;
1- they never even attempted to answer my questions of faith growing up, in particular before I chose to seek other paths
2- they were born into a religion yet never even bothered to read its main text -- ie the BIBLE to figure out what it was all about
3- when I stopped attending church etc they did nothing to try and convince me otherwise and were wholly apathetic

IMHO a parent who doesn't even try to invest in their child spiritually has no place complaining about them rejecting their religion.

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 2:01 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Exactly

amother

Burgundy

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 2:02 pm

I think that FFB parents like to fool themselves into thinking that they are so secure because their alte Bubbies were shomer mitzvos and/or they have such special yichus/ ginormous extended frum families, and they forget a simple truth:

Hashem gave EVERY JEW BECHIRAH. Every teen has a choice to make, and even the most shtark/frum kid has a need to individuate and be himself/herself, at least slightly different than her dear Ima or Abba. This is innate. We have a lot of influence as parents but there are no guarantees. The FFB child has his/her own challenges, and precisely because s/he is so sheltered may be more curious about what is out there.

amother

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 2:05 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

Well isn’t this ironic
Considering how very anti-questions the Frum system is. To children and adults alike.

amother

Seashell

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 2:33 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Clearly
Because heaven forbid someone says it the way it is.

There really is no point in talking to you. Just because you think something doesn't make it "the way it is".

But in case you really didn't understand my comment I'll explain it you for my last comment on this thread.

Violet amother said that since her parents were so apathetic and invested so little effort into her remaining in their religion therefore they have no place complaining about her rejecting it.

You twisted that into a basis to make an ad homien attack on the entire frum world and their attitude towards questions.

(Sweetie, wasn't that you complaining about racism earlier in this thread?)

On a personal and final note. You seem to have a tendency to hear people saying things they didn't, when it doesn't fit your agenda. Perhaps that was the case with this speaker and anyone else you asked questions to.

amother

Violet

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 2:52 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Well isn’t this ironic
Considering how very anti-questions the Frum system is. To children and adults alike.

You know, when I first entered a midrasha to start my conversion process (in a 'mixed' class of FFB, BTs and fellow convert candidates) the most annoying thing for me was that the girls asked ENDLESS questions. Literally non stop. It took me a long while to realize that this was an intrinsically Jewish trait (after all, the gemara itself is a series of questions and debates) which I had zero prior exposure to.

It sounds like you've an axe to grind and it has absolutely nothing to do with the poor convert you began this tirade with.

amother

Mustard

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 3:01 pm

As others have said op- I'm sorry that it seems that you've had a negative experience with the frum world. My dh is a bt. He became frum because he believes its true and will be more then happy to answer any questions our children to the best of his ability. I am an FFB. I definitely question but not so much the philosophical questions type so might be different but don't feel like I was discouraged from questioning. My dh due to personality will probably be more "equipped" to ansawer questions.

amother

Oak

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 4:37 pm

amother [ Burgundy ] wrote:

This is totally not the point. Nobody is saying that ffb parents feel more secure that their children wont go otd.

allthingsblue

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 4:52 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Well isn’t this ironic
Considering how very anti-questions the Frum system is. To children and adults alike.

I have never found the Jewish system to be anti-questions. Lehefech, in school, seminary and now, questions were encouraged and answered. I have been blessed to meet great and wise rabbonim and mentors, who unfailingly give up their time, at no cost to me, to answer my questions.

OOTforlife

Wed, Jul 17 2019, 4:53 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Clearly
Because heaven forbid someone says it the way it is.

It's been pretty clear from the first page that you started this thread to tell everyone "the way it is" despite framing your opinions as questions.

This is a common phenomenon on imamother, and I also see it on non-Jewish predominantly woman-oriented forums: expressing strong or potentially controversial opinions in a passive aggressive manner by formulating them as questions. My theory is that it stems from the social conditioning women get to be "nice," which means avoiding open conflict.

So, to use a popular mommy wars example, women who believe that "Being a SAHM is a waste of brains," or "Working 50 hours a week means neglecting one's kids," won't openly say those things. Instead, they'll say things like "How do you manage to keep yourself intellectually stimulated without any adults around all day? I would be so bored. It makes me so sad to see women who don't take advantage of all the opportunities out there. My SAHM neighbor has giant bags under her eyes and she looks so miserable and bored. How does she live that way?"

It's much more productive to express an opinion directly.