Open Minded to less frum... and more??

SixOfWands

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:39 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Because according to him, he just can't eat it. Simple as that. He's not saying it's treif. He's saying he doesn't eat it. That's all. He is not obligated to eat something that's not his minhag just to satisfy a relative. A mature person should be happy with his company , or should have chosen a different restaurant.
Salmon, baked potato, salad- these can all have potential issues. If I don't hold by a certain hechsher, I can't eat anything there, except maybe coffee, beverages, fruit.
You can and should eat them if you are ok with the hechsher. betayavon!

Just like I understand it's ok for some women to not wear stockings or to show a bit of hair or to not cover. That's what they hold. But since I don't hold like that, I simply can't do it. I just can't, no matter whom I might offend. (I wouldn't be rude about it though.)

So it goes beyond the hecksher.

Because potatoes don't require heckshers.

By not eating a potato, you're not saying "I don't accept that hecksher," you're saying "I don't think that the oven is kosher."

amother

Linen

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 2:53 pm

OOTforlife wrote:

Not sure why you're repeating this to me--I didn't say anything about her choice of restaurant. I don't think there's anything wrong with her picking the restaurant she prefers for her special occasion.

The unreasonable part is where she stopped speaking to her brother or BIL (don't remember) because he quietly abstained from eating there. I myself wouldn't call it a lack of open-mindedness, because open-mindedness isn't the issue. I would think that either she has some sort of emotional baggage in this one particular area (despite being generally nice and reasonable) or she's just generally a difficult and volatile person.

The only people I know IRL who I can imagine reacting this way (stopping speaking to someone) over such a choice are generally very difficult and strain their relationships with others in myriad ways.

I was just responding in general - not really to you.

I forgot she stopped speaking to him.. That's just weird. Though I also think its weird to go to a restaurant and not eat.

There seems to be a lot going on here.

creditcards

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 11:09 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I really don't care what other people eat, so long as they don't comment on ME or mine.

But what you're saying is very different from what the poster said.

You purchase heckshers that your father accepts, and he eats in your house. To be equivalent, your father would have to tell you that the level of kashrut in your home doesn't meet his standards, so he won't eat anything at all, even things that don't require a hecksher, and even things with a hecksher he approves of.

Because if the guy felt that it was a kosher restaurant, just not heckshers he used, he could have had a baked potato. Or a salad. Or salmon with no sauce. But no. He was taking the position that a potato baked in the oven of a restaurant that was sufficiently kosher for the woman the poster referred to as "frum" -- and, if I read between the lines correctly, for the poster herself -- was actually treyf for him. That goes beyond "I don't eat that hecksher."

That's completely wrong. If a person does not eat that hechsher then eating a baked potato means eating a hechsher that he doesn't eat. It just doesn't work that way. This is not called being accepting if you can't accept the fact that certain people won't eat a hechsher that you think is OK.

You have no idea how many chumros people have with food. I know someone who only eats food he or his wife (or kids) made from beginning to end. He won't eat anything bought even if it has the best hechsher in the world. Not tolerating this fact is not called being accepting at all.

And let's say be thinks it is completely treif? What should he do then? Is it wrong if he thinks she is eating treif? Does he have a right to think that his relative is eating treif without her being insulted? Were talking about a person who is so accepting that she even went to a person's Christian conversion...And is friends with the terrorists.

Last edited by creditcards on Sun, Jul 21 2019, 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total

creditcards

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 9:32 am

PinkFridge wrote:

And they made some serious halachic calculations, even if it just took a minute. Many laypeople aren't able to do that.

And let's just say that he is not such a big tzadik as those gedolim and just has some serious OCD issues ( which is the case with a lot of people who have over the top chumros) and that's why he only sipped a drink. He still deserves to be respected for that.

byisrael

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:22 am

All everyone is doing by disecting my story is proving my point - it's easier to accept people with different standards when they are more lenient then you are then when they are stricter then you are....

For anyone who is actually interested in our family drama;

BTW this was in israel where fruits and veggies are more complicated (maaser and orlah). Our rav guided us to maaser our own vegtables, and unlike my brother we do eat the hechsher for the meat.
The relative didn't speak to me for this until I sent flowers and an apology note "for being rude and destroying the family venue that she worked so hard on" my brother spoke to a therapist who told him not to engage with this relative, because next time she will find s/t else.
The weirdest part she only has issues with the "frummie" relatives, she believes that if s/o is more liberal then her she needs to have "patience and understanding" for EVERY quirk...

I believe that family is family and you do what ya gotta do even when they are totally nuts- but let me tell you - it can drive you nuts.

allthingsblue

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:26 am

SixOfWands wrote:

If the potato was cooked in an oven that potentially cooked meat that wasn't his standard, or had spices that weren't his standard, then no he couldn't eat it.
And like someone previously pointed out- how would the relative have liked it if he specified his request for "a completely unspiced potato, double wrapped in foil"? I doubt she would have appreciated it one iota more.

Genius

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:28 am

creditcards wrote:

I wouldn't call eating only specific hechsherim an over the top chumra. and btw im not sure ur even allowed to go into a church let alone to a christian conversion.

amother

Aqua

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:34 am

amother [ Linen ] wrote:

Impossible to know.

But to repeat myself from yesterday - Sticking to her guns re: restaurant choice doesn't indicate lack of 'open mindedness'.

Indicates lack of flexibility, perhaps coupled with stubbornness.

Sticking to her guns doesn't indicate lack of open mindedness.
Not tolerating a brother who is respectfully doing the same - sticking to his guns and upholding his values - that's absolutely a lack of open-mindedness.
She is simply not open-minded enough to tolerate behavior that her mind can't comprehend - or rather refuses to comprehend. What else is lack of open-mindedness if not this? He wasn't imposing on anyone and quietly doing his thing.
She seems to be very selectively tolerant, based on those she does sympathize with. Kinda like: "I tolerate everyone, except if their views don't match with mine." Speechless

allthingsblue

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:37 am

urban gypsy wrote:

I find this very difficult to believe.
I think the only situation which this would apply to would be Chalav Yisrael
Otherwise I'm sure this is not halachically accurate

Guess what? There are different opinions! And who said the restaurant even offered a plain baked potato? And once again, wouldn't that be making a scene in and of itself, and how would that be appreciated by this relative?

amother

Aqua

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:38 am

urban gypsy wrote:

I find this very difficult to believe.
I think the only situation which this would apply to would be Chalav Yisrael
Otherwise I'm sure this is not halachically accurate

I actually agree with the poster you are quoting. I do believe that's the halachic perspective.
But in any case, regardless of that, as long as he's not imposing on anyone else, why can't he do his thing? I suspect everyone would be a lot more tolerant if he said he was on some trendy extreme diet and therefore can't partake of any food.

urban gypsy

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:43 am

allthingsblue wrote:

My goal is for everyone to stop conflating wouldn't (personal choice) and couldn't (halacha).
I'm not saying what he should or shouldn't do, but promulgating halachically inaccurate information doesn't serve anyone.

amother

Linen

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:43 am

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Being open minded means allowing yourself the opportunity to challenge your preconceived ideas on things.

Like - I've heard that restaurant across the street with the other hechsher isn't all that great, but I'll be open-minded and we'll eat there.

Or I really think that Jews should stay Jewish - but I'll be open to the possibility that I'm wrong - and celebrate with my friend who seems to have found some happiness.

allthingsblue

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:52 am

urban gypsy wrote:

The problem is that he should not have to compromise on what HE holds (after studying the Halacha and/or speaking with mashgichim and rabbonim) is he ideal form of fulfilling Halacha to satisfy a judgemental relative, assuming he was respectful.

Last edited by allthingsblue on Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total

urban gypsy

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 10:53 am

allthingsblue wrote:

The problem is that he should not have to compromise on what HE feels is he ideal form of fulfilling Halacha to satisfy a judgemental relative, assuming he was respectful.

To paraphrase Ben Shapiro, whom I [vehemently disagree with and generally dislike], feelings are not halacha

Last edited by urban gypsy on Mon, Jul 22 2019, 11:00 am; edited 1 time in total