Normal sibling rivalry vs. scary violence

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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Our Challenging Children (gifted, ADHD, sensitive, defiant)

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aricelli

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 4:41 pm

I honestly cant stop thinking of you having been in quite similar situations with my little guy. I wish there was something I could do for you. If youre in brooklyn and I could be of any-any- any help for you over shabbos or afterwards feel free to pm me. Hope your shabbos is peaceful.

bigsis144

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 4:47 pm

amother [ Violet ] wrote:

This may sound radical, but would it make sense to remove him from the house temporarily (perhaps to stay with grandparents) until he’s got this under control? It sounds like it’s not safe for the other kids and turning you into a nervous wreck.

My parents live on the opposite coast; DH’s parents couldn’t handle it.

amother

Oak

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 5:01 pm

My oldest is exactly like this, and he is the same age too. Actually, that knife incident happened in our home as well. I had to hide the knife above the cabinets, and then he went and tried to take more knives, and I hid them all, and then he started climbing the cabinets, trying to reach them so he he could "kill his brother" who was 10 months old at the time.

Difference is that my son went through severe physical and s-xual trauma as an infant and toddler and has been in therapy most of his life. BH he is doing significantly better, but the deep seated jealousy and feelings of worthlessness still drive him to do these crazy violent, mean things every so often (which is at least a few times a week). And when he is tired or hungry there is no chance, he reverts to the worst.

I would explore the possibility of trauma by a babysitter or relative or daycare or school--whenever the behavior started. Also read up on dissociation. When my son was doing the knife thing he was in a dissociative state, with a "voice in his head telling him he had to kill his brother." (sounds schizophrenic if you don't know about dissociation, but the difference is the voices go away when the trauma is healed, where as schizo is lifelong. No more voices over here, BH)

For us, we use a combination of therapy, nurtirion, one on one time, conversations about feelings and regulating feelings at home, OT, physical activity, good sleep habbits...and then we daven and do the best we can. And I am in therapy as well, to learn to deal with him and deal with my own feelings towards my son that drives me nuts.

I am considering bringing my middle child to therapy because he has been the brunt of the bullying his entire life Teary Eyed

Lots of hugs, wishing you patience, an endless heart, and the right guidance for you and your family.

FranticFrummie

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 11:13 am

You've gotten some wonderful advice here so far.

I suggest you record his outbursts and violence on your phone. Therapists and doctors need to see this behavior "in the moment", because kids can keep it together in an office setting. It will also remind you that you are not crazy.

If you need to get him to the ER, and he's refusing to get into the car, call an ambulance and be sure to tell them that this is a psychological intervention. If they know ahead of time, they will be more understanding with him, and it will be less traumatic for everyone involved.

He doesn't need to be seen at the medical ER, he needs to be taken directly to a psych ward for evaluation and a 24 hour hold (or however long it takes). Make sure you tell the ambulance drivers that he needs to go straight to psych.

I second the advice of getting on the waiting list of every professional you can, and call at least 2 to 3 times a week asking about cancellations. It DOES make a difference. You will be moved to the top of the list, and you will be remembered. Make sure to say "I'm really sorry I'm being a pest, and I appreciate you checking the schedule for me. I wouldn't bother you so much, but we're just at wit's end here." The nicer you are, the faster you get in.

You are an amazing mother for everything you are doing, and with a Aspie husband on top of it all! I'm impressed you've managed to keep your sanity for as long as you have. It's time to stop thinking you can fix this on your own, and time to start letting the professionals take over.

sequoia

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 11:23 am

I agree with FF.

And I’m going to add something bluntly.

You’ve mentioned several times how you feel guilt, wonder if it’s your fault, you’re in therapy, etc. This is not about you now. It isn’t. Whether you caused it or not, whether it’s your fault or not, whether you’re making progress in therapy or not, regardless of your feelings — you have to make changes that ensure the safety of your other kids, especially the baby. This is not normal. This is super f-cking scary. And your reactions and feelings are only relevant insofar as they help or hinder you to put an end to it.

grace413

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 11:48 am

bigsis144 wrote:

(And always, always in my head - maybe it’s all my fault. Maybe I made him like this. Maybe this is what parenting is like for everyone and I’m just a failure. Maybe maybe maybe...
stay in therapy, folks!

IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT!!!!!

Please don't make an already difficult situation worse by blaming yourself. You are obviously a caring and concerned mother.

I wish you hatzlacha in finding appropriate help for both your boys. You cannot do this alone.

chanchy123

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 12:13 pm

I didn't read most of the comments. I would call your pediatrician and set up a meeting ASAP and detail the scenerios where your son endangered your other children.
Talk to his school see what help they can provide or recommend.

amother

Slateblue

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 12:57 pm

Get this child out of the house, or you are going to bury one of your younger children.

All your other children are under extreme duress, and in an unsafe living environment. Before you can even start changing your eldest's behaviour, you need to make sure everyone is safe.

amother

Azure

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 7:55 pm

I was rereading the book “cure your child with food” over shabbos and it reminded me to ask you about your kids diets. What kind of food do they eat? You may want to work on improving diet.
The book has a chapter about kids who were on antipsychotic medication who it turned out their problems were completely cured by fixing their diets. Either eliminating junk food or adding vitamins or going gluten free.
It’s worth thinking about.

bigsis144

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 8:07 pm

I got a call back from one psychotherapy clinic late on Friday - the place I had broken down crying after speaking to them for the second time that week.

I’m seeing someone from there this Thursday.

My mother is flying in to spend a week and a half in our house, arriving tomorrow, so having one more adult around will be HUGE. (It is utterly draining to never be able to let the baby out of my sight, even when DS is in a good mood because his behavior can change on a dime.)

Thank you all so much again

amother

Tangerine

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 8:25 pm

Some of the posts here are... Wow. Sometimes someone is so absorbed in the nitty gritty of her daily life, it's hard to get an objective view of the big picture. I'm so glad op that your getting some hands on help and also making headway with professional involvement. You're awesome Hug

amother

Plum

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 9:13 pm

Please be careful when being assigned a therapist in a clinic. They can be interns or licensed for adults and be interning for children. Make sure you have a really experience therapist. Not a nice person to occupy your child for an hour a week and you fell so helpless when you don't see any progress.

amother

Yellow

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 9:16 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

DS9 had a full psych ed eval at the end of first grade (he'll be going into 4th grade this fall), when things weren't nearly this bad.

No medication recommended, no disorders or autism diagnosed. All they said "he's a very intelligent kid who feels like an equal to the adults in his life and has trouble recognizing his own emotions. Just give him firm boundaries and lots of love."

He is able to keep it together at school (except for a few minor incidents), so lots of the professionals I've seen think that's a good sign - if it was a brain chemistry thing, he wouldn't be able to "turn it off" as easily. I think he tries very hard to fit in at school and that's WHY he comes home ready to explode - he's been bottling up his rage all day.

Thank you so much for the validation, everybody. My mother-in-law will say things like, "I don't know how you let him talk to you like that! He needs a good smack upside the head." or "I raised 3 boys, all of them idiots, and they all lived to be functioning adults."

DH has Aspergers and isn't home much. He tries to break up fights when he's home, but he's waaay less proactive than me, and doesn't do the positive/empathy stuff without it sounding super duper forced and awkward.

Your son sounds so much like mine.
My husband has aspergers as well and my son has been unofficially diagnosed as well.
Explosive child has been helpful as well as looong bear hugs when out of control (sometimes 45 min long)
Feel free to email me at anonymous0693@gmail.com

bigsis144

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 9:20 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Absolutely. I had a very sweet young social worker see us for nearly 2 years, and it never seemed to get any better.

But I’m willing to see anyone for an immediate intake appointment with the hopes of getting my foot in the door for testing and/or longer term therapy with an experienced professional.

bigsis144

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 9:30 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

Haha LOL
DS9’s diet consists of chocolate milk, microwave hot pretzels and plain white pasta.

He is slim but still a healthy weight, blood work revealed no major deficiencies - he’s not even anemic, I have no idea how since he hasn’t been fleishig in YEARS... pediatrician isn’t worried.

I’ve given up on making food into a power struggle. He gets protein, carbs and fat from the milk and has plenty of energy (DH has taken him on 12-mile bike rides!).
His rebbes in school have mentioned that he often goes without lunch, and I tell them
It’s not for lack of my packing food... he’ll sometimes unpack what I made and just take a sleeve of saltines. If he doesn’t unpack it, I’ll find molding clementines or a sandwich at the bottom of his backpack a week later. No thanks.

I eat chicken and vegetables and fruit and hummus and rice and spices and cheese - if he ever wants to eat like me, there’s plenty good food in the house. I’m not going to get rid of the milk in order to force him to stop drinking it, yeah?

Food is not the battlefield I pick right now. 👍

amother

Azure

Sat, Jul 20 2019, 10:19 pm

bigsis144 wrote:

OMG I can’t believe this. I really feel you should read this chapter. I kinda feel bad because it sounds like it is pure hell to treat and fix but if it helps you then it’s worth trying.
This sounds exactly like the stories written there. Honestly medication is probably easier than working on diet but if you really want to help him then I can send you some info.

rosezee

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 3:21 am

To me, DS6 has learned from DS9 and DS9 should’ve gotten professional help and possibly medication.. yesterday.

Good luck

amother

Lemon

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 5:40 am

My ds is just like this only he is terrorizing his sister 2 years younger.

He has seen practically every social worker in the neighborhood.
He had a psychological evaluation for medication and although I was hoping that meds would help I was told that he doesn’t need medication he just needs better therapy. At that point we were paying $150 for each therapy session, hoping that this therapist would make a breakthrough. Before that we had seen various social workers through our insurance.
We went to professionals who mentor parents. I took a few parenting courses too... nothing seemed to help.
We took him for occupational therapy- maybe he was sensory?? That didn’t seem to help either. One OT told me that he wasn’t sensory, he just doesn’t listen!
Over the years he behaved in school but his behavior at home was a nightmare.
Until a year ago-
Then he became defiant in class and to the principal too..
A defiant, challenging child with no diagnosis...
He became a bar mitzvah boy and really went down hill.
He lost interest in anything Jewish.
He hardly davens
Refuses to learn
Refuses to take a haircut to look like a yeshiva boy
Refuses to conform to anything
Terrorizes his siblings... physically hurts them.... and yes, he has physically hurt me too
He got involved with a few troublesome friends who were doing very inappropriate things...
Another new therapist..
Now we are paying $250 for each session and we are being told to only love him and be kind to him. We are being told that he wouldn’t be like this if he would feel good about himself. We are being told to overlook all the bad and only compliment him.
It’s been a few months. We’re trying but honestly I’m only human and just can’t compliment all the time when I am so disappointed.
DS lost his yiras shamayim. He lost all his good, frum friends. I’m not sure how this is happening to me and how I can find the good in what we are going through.
He was just like your ds, op. Don’t think that as he gets older he will mature because a child like that won’t get better without the right help.
It’s frustrating because what is the right help??? I must have taken my son to close to 10 different therapists!! I don’t want to hear any book recommendations from anyone! Reading a book will not help me with my child. This is too severe. Don’t sit back and watch your son play chess or with sand with some social worker just because he takes your insurance. You need to find the top there is. You are saving his life and nothing should hold you back.
I wish I could say that there’s a happy ending but right now all we can do is daven and beg Hashem to send our ds a yeshua. I beg Hashem that He should give me the strength to know how to be a good parent to this child and to all of my children.

amother

Tangerine

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 5:46 am

bigsis144 wrote:

Oh gosh. This is not to say you did anything wrong or should be making this the focus of your intervention. But his diet absolutely must be affecting his behavior in some way. And unfortunately it's not uncommon that the kids with the most challenging behavior also have the worst diets. Chicken/ egg who knows, it's reality.

ra_mom

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 5:46 am

bigsis144 wrote:

May you find the right shaliach quickly to help you all to yeshua! Hug

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