Normal sibling rivalry vs. scary violence

aricelli

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 9:17 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Unfortunately, this is only the beginning of a very long journey for you. I am hoping you and your family get competent help!

Does he actually have a diagnosis? The therapists you've seen through insurance must have given him one in order to bill.

This sounds very much like Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Especially the line "a child who thinks he is equal to adults."

Good luck on your journey! We are here to support you.

I think we can try to diagnose him with a bazillion things but ultimately we arent professionals and are only guessing. A child who thinks he is equal to adults and does not understand authority could also be asd and also have very poor motor planning etc etc etc.

amother

Beige

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 9:53 pm

aricelli wrote:

Yes, this is true; however, I am a professional. While of course I can't make a diagnosis over the internet, offering an opinion was all I intended. My goal in posting this is to create awareness of this condition. In 5 pages people have mentioned ADHD, Reactive Attachment Disorder, ASD, anger, impulsivity, and other symptoms and conditions. If OP had not yet considered ODD, I wanted to alert her to this in order to gain clarity and a possible trajectory for treatment and specialists to consider.

amother

Tangerine

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 9:59 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

And in my (professional) opinion, ODD should not be considered unless everything else has been ruled out. I believe that other disorders can masquerade as ODD, which is really just a description of behavior, and successful treatment really depends on accurate diagnosis.

amother

Jade

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 10:03 pm

Stars wrote:

I completely disagree with all the people who are saying to focus on his diet. This is not the time or place.

You're probably right... however...

I've heard of children reversing serious psychiatric symptoms by:

1. Going off gluten
2. Going off sugar
3. Going off a food they are allergic to.

I don't think that diet changes should be ruled out completely, because you never know...

Has he been tested for gluten or other allergies?

Stars

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 10:17 pm

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

There is a time and place for everything. I'm guessing you were never in a situation like this yourself.

( I've seen families be shredded apart, mentally, emotionally, physically over gluten/dairy/sugar free diets. In several cases there were devastating lifelong consequences and no changes to the actual problems)

ectomorph

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 10:22 pm

Jade. This is seriously not the time or the place. The last thing OP needs is a huge time, energy and financial commitment while she's handling a difficult behavioral situation with little support. There is NO data that these diets help anyone. And he's 9. This isn't a toddler whose diet is easy to control.

OP, your son needed a psychiatric evaluation yesterday. And you need to be upfront about the danger he causes your family, that you are frightened, and emphasize the dangerous incidents. I'm sorry you're going thru this and davening for you.

amother

Bronze

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 10:22 pm

I had a student diagnosed with ODD who sounds very, very similar to OP's son. He mostly kept it together at school, but terrorized his sister and mom at home. His mom said he already exhibited symptoms of anger and rage before he was a year old, when he had crazy tantrums. Not something that was connected to his diet at that age.
He was on meds and was seeing a psychiatrist by the time he was in my class. He was 10.

aricelli

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 10:25 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

Got it! I guess my heart goes out for this little boy... and his sibs... and his family... as someone whos been there and now realized just how lost and confused my child was pre help.

amother

Jade

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 10:29 pm

ectomorph wrote:

I wasnt clear, obviously. I don't mean that she should try any of these diets in the random hope that they would help; what I mean is that sometimes a severe gluten or other food allergy can trigger some of these symptoms. I don't think it would hurt to have her child tested for celiac or gluten or other food allergy - a simple blood test, not too complicated.

As for sugar - I know someone who was able to manage scary symptoms by going off sugar, but he was older and more self aware. I doubt it would work in this case. Just putting the info out though.

Definitely he needs meds to stabilize himself for sure at this point, but I was just wondering if they can't do a simple blood test - just to rule it out.

Do you all remember the story of Helen Keller?

Many times emotional/psychiatric issues come from physical deficiencies. I don't see why this should not at least be ruled out.

amother

Lawngreen

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 10:36 pm

I'm going to post from personal experience. Please dont throw tomatoes at me...
My son presented many of these same behaviours, unfortunately.
Eventually, we found out he had Pandas...Psych meds didnt help, neither did top dollar psychiatrists or behaviourists...
He is on antibiotics, steroids when needed and ivig and he is a DIFFERENT kid. Nice, happy, kissing me and babies saying I love you.
We still have ups and downs when he is exposed to strep (unfortunately often in this community), but we are seeing what was underneath that we hadn't seen in years...
It was tremendously scary looking at him, and seeing how MEAN he was...even dangerous...(we learned safety tricks and hid knives and had emergency numbers on hand)...
There is a good kid hiding underneath...
You mentioned that the behaviour is worsening.
If you haven't tested him for strep, lyme (especially if you have been to the country ever or live in monsey), mycoplasma etc...I urge you to do so ALONG with exploring trauma and seeing psychiatrist.
Underlying, untreated infections can and DO cause psych symptoms, including ODD behaviour.

amother

Apricot

Sun, Jul 21 2019, 10:51 pm

amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:

I am SO SO glad you said this. I've been wanting to say the same since I opened this thread but didn't have the guts. We have a very similar story. Extreme violent sociopathic behavior, terrifying rages and zero emotional regulation. A different child with treatment for pandas. I know this post will get a lot of eye-rolls, another anonymous imamother labelling every problem under the sun as pandas, but maybe, just maybe this will plant a seed, and when things settle a little this might be an avenue to pursue. Going to add, psychiatric diagnoses and pandas are not mutually exclusive, one will be describing the symptoms and the other is describing the cause for those symptoms. OP can pursue crisis intervention, medication and therapy for her child while at the same time keeping in mind that in the absence of trauma, these kinds of behaviors very likely have a biological cause.

me01

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 12:14 am

As a mental health professional with experience in this area, I agree with previous posters about exploring the possibility of brain inflammatory illnesses due to infection (such as PANDAS or PANS (or Lyme)) or brain anomalies, as well exporing possible trauma, of course.

http://rbsmedical.com/index.ph.....dren/

Dr. Susan Schulman wrote this astute article 10 years ago(!) before much research, acceptance or knowledge of this was available. She even mentions that this brain illness, impacting the basal ganglia, can trigger personality changes, causing children to become -in her words - "oppositional or obnoxious." I would highly suggest that reach out to Dr. Schulman for guidance and possible referrals in your area. You may even want to travel to her, as many patients do that.

Also, FYI - restrictive eating, which you mention is also present, is very often a symptom of basal ganglia inflammation and further supports the need to thoroughly explore possible PANDAS or PANS. Additionally, your child sounds like he has sensory sensitivities to noises (another common symptom) in the irritable way he reacts to your crying baby. Also frequently - see if you can recall back - early symptoms can include separation anxiety, frequent intense crying, ADHD and manic type symptoms and/or wetting in day or night. These symptoms may remit and/or evolve or change over time.

For more information, check out:

pandasnetwork.org

https://beta.washingtonpost.co.....e=amp

https://www.neuroimmune.org/sw.....swedo

https://abc.go.com/shows/2020/.....andas

None of this is easy - for you or your child(ren). Hatzlocha and continued wisdom and strength as the path to recovery, regardless of the cause, can be long and difficult, but is unquestionably worth it.

Last edited by me01 on Mon, Jul 22 2019, 8:16 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Brunette

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 5:31 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

What really is ODD? I know it’s oppositional defiance disorder but is it really a diagnosis? I feel it’s someone who has horrible uncontrollable anger management issues, but is it a chemical brain imbalance, is a child born with it, is it preventable or inevitable?
I’ve met one kid with this FOR SURE & my heart goes out to him & his terrorized sibs and parents & think he needs meds yesterday. & to stop eating tons of junk food. His parents are scared of him.

amother

Apricot

Mon, Jul 22 2019, 9:22 am

me01 wrote:

OP if this is something you want to look into, Dr. Beth Latimer is a well known pandas specialist in the DC area. She's a neurologist.