Toddlers, elbows & halacha

sky

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 11:29 am

dancingqueen wrote:

What are tznius pjs for a 3 year old?

I just wonder how you teach a toddler that they have to be fully covered without teaching them that their bodies are shameful. Do boys in the same communities have to dress like adult men from age 3 too?

My girlss in no way feel their bodies are shameful. It’s a source of pride. I think their school curriculum is so positive and encouraging regarding tzinius.

While I brought up the issue with men and davening earlier I would never tell them that. There is no connection between the way they dress and men in their education.

amother

Ivory

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 11:31 am

little neshamala wrote:

Monsey is hujongous. There are tons and tons and tons of communities.
Just like you are confused about what community I live in (im sorry I cant say,ive revealed way too much personal info on this site to risk being figured out), im so confused about what community you live in. "Many are even in tights by 4/5"? I dont know yeshivish people whose children wear tights. The only people I know whose kids wear tights are chassidish/heimish chassidish...so that just further demonstrates how diverse the communities on monsey are.
My yeshivish community will see some girls past 6 in sleeves right above their elbow, others wear long sleeves. Some girls wear knee socks, others wear short socks. No one wears tights.

Do they wear nude tights on shabbos?

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 11:38 am

amother [ Ivory ] wrote:

Do they wear nude tights on shabbos?

Yes, the older girls do. That isnt what I meant by tights though. When "4 and 5 year olds are wearing tights" that isnt referring to nude stockings.

So, to clarify, no children in my yeshivish community wear tights. Knee socks is the most. I am not referring to nude stockings.

amother

Ivory

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 11:41 am

little neshamala wrote:

Oh. Ok!

Chayalle

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:07 pm

Lakewood yeshivish. Our Rav said 5 or primary, whichever comes first, is when they should start wearing sleeves that cover elbows, and knee socks as opposed to shorter socks or no socks.

For my kids who turned 5 before they started primary, I wasn't super makpid if the child was not so ready (which Rav said was fine.) Once they started school, we just followed the dress code.

I also stopped sleeveless at 3. At 4, my kids stopped wearing pants, but not because we were makpid - but no one else was wearing them....my DD still wore skorts in the summer, though.

flowerpower

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:09 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Until Imamother I never knew girls were told to be covered up because their bodies are shameful. We were taught and so were my kids- that we cover because we are supposed to be tznius and it’s a mitzvah.. never related to men or shame. It’s just part of who we are.

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:35 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Little neshamala, there are plenty of little girls in kiryas radin development that wear tights by 4/5.
I've seen it alot by the real frum yeshivish, they're even more makpid then the chassidish.
Amother ivory, by tights I don't mean nude stockings.

Youre proving my point. There are so many yeshivish communities in Monsey, and they're all different.
I dont live in kiryas radin, and ive never seen yeshivish kids wearing tights. Im not ch"v suggesting youre lying-im explaining that ive never seen it.

You quoted my post, and said that you've never seen yeshivish girls in short sleeves past 6. But im not lying, that is a reality-just not in the community you live in.

aliavi

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 2:15 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

That her underwear aren’t showing. Longer nightgown or shorter nightgown with something under. Girls and I have thin robes to wear outside our rooms over pajamas that don’t cover.

No shame. Whatsoever. Not that type of ima.

For example I mentioned if she wants a t shirt in preschool she can wear. I say something positive about what she has picked and then just get out a shell and give it to her without comment. If she objects then fine. Even if she doesn’t wear I am very okay with allowing and accepting the choice. I do the same with tights/socks. I don’t leave the house without tights or pantyhose. It’s just habits more than nagging. It’s norms that they are exposed to. I dress modestly and buy modest clothes that are cute and fit well so girls feel good.

I don’t dress boys in my community. For my boys, I am particular that they dont wear short sleeves or shirts without a collar past 9ish. I usually purchase and just buy what I think is best. Even at 3 I mostly buy polo shirts. Again no “preaching” or shaming. Most imas aren’t as fussy with their boys as I am. I have boys wear swim shirts too.

Shaming just isn’t a thing. Don’t do anything you’re not comfortable with. I hope my post helps you to understand.

dancingqueen

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 3:20 pm

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

My little boys love wearing a white shirt on shabbos to be just like Tatty.

I don't understand how a little girl would get the message that her body is shameful unless that's what her mother tells her. She's dressing like mommy, she's a big girl that already dresses tznius and she's so lucky!

Do they really feel lucky in the summer wearing long sleeves knee socks and tznius bathing suits when their brothers of the same age are wearing regular bathing suits and crocs? Just trying to understand.

mha3484

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 3:28 pm

My three oldest are boys and my 8 1/2 year old wears a rash guard and bathing suit even for indoor swimming and he says most of the other boys do too.

We are in the midwest and consider ourselves yeshivish. The school does not allow shorts after 4th grade and I think it naturally tapers off around then at home as well.

I really dont think the differences are so stark as kids get older.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 3:29 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Why would girls wear tznius bathing suits? Never heard of that.

And BTW, my boys are required to wear long pants and collars on their shirts once they're in first grade or so, both in school and at home. If my boys are wearing crocs, my daughter is wearing crocs as well. No difference.

amother

Brown

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 3:33 pm

I only have girls but I decided to talk to my 9 year old because of this thread. she was just like yeah it would be nice to wear shortsleeves in the summer because I'm hot but whatever I need to dress tzniusdik so that's that. those weren't her exact words but that was the basic idea.

honestly I agree with her. I don't dress the way I do because of any lofty reason. I do it because I hold that thats the halacha like keeping kosher and shabbos... yes I think there is an inherent benefit to not walking around on the street in a bikini but short sleeves? naah, I think you can be completely self respecting... and do it. I don't do it purely for halachik reasons. I am aware that there are rabbis who say its fine. those aren't my 'rabbis" thats all. So its not about body shaming or "feeling lucky" or anything, it just is.

to be clear I would let my daughter go in the water in crocks, no socks. we don't hold that that is halacha just minhag hamakom and I can see myself putting a rash guard on a son. find the topless thing a little weird even for boys.

aliavi

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 4:57 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Aliavi, may I ask why you don't allow your boys over 9 to wear short sleeves or collarless tee's?

Sure. Because if I tell my girls not to I also tell my boys not to. I do prefer the look. I also like to use it as an opportunity to remind that tznuis isn’t just for girls and isn’t just about clothes. I’m not saying this is Halacha or a psak. With my bigger boys Bh it has helped them to be kind about reminders for dds. A plus is I think dds complain less because we are all in the same boat with bodies covered. We are a pretty athletic family too.

soap suds

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 5:19 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Do you teach your kids to keep their privates covered? How do you manage to do that without body shaming? Same thing. Covered doesn't equal shaming.

soap suds

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 5:25 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

My girls don't compare themselves to their brothers. Boys wear boys' clothes, girls wear girls' clothes. They have a bigger issue with what their friends wear than what their brothers do.

Do secular boys feel bad about wearing full t-shirts and shorts while their sisters get to wear tank tops and short-shorts? Why is it that people are ok with different standards of dress for men and women in the secular world, and when it comes to tznius we get so riled up with how unfair it is?

As a Chassidishe woman, I actually do feel lucky that I get to wear much cooler clothes than my husband does. He's stuck wearing so many layers, while I get to wear one layer of cool breezy cotton.

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 5:27 pm

I have them mostly in skirts at 3. I say mostly because I do buy them snow pants to go with their winter jacket till around 5, for very cold days. As to sleeves, they inch down gradually starting at 3 and as things are outgrown, so that by time they're 9 they are covering elbows. I am either rwmo or lw yeshivish.

amother

Lawngreen

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 6:55 pm

I start the summer after my girls start school. Once it's school dress code, I don't like the idea of teaching them that we do different things in school and at home. So the summer after primary we start long sleeves and knee socks. I don't make them crazy if their skirt is a bit short or Sleeves pushed up until around 8 or so, depending on the child and how aware they are.