Really want to understand... Lace front shaitels and halacha

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 2:05 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

Well, that's nice. But he's not my Rav. And I don't live in your town.

Honestly I don't see that my community needs that many speeches in bein adam lachaveiro. I live in a yeshivish community and have lots of yeshivish friends (and family) and I really find everyone to be nice and people I know really do work hard on adam lachaveiro. In Lakewood there is so much tzedakah and so much chesed... obviously that's just my experience but that IS my experience.

Look all im saying is that the only asifa I ever hear about is the tznius/shaitels type. Aside from tisha b'av I never ever hear of a random asifah to do with ahavas chinam/bein adam lechavero.
But, on tisha b'av itself, theyre all over the place-and every speaker acknowledges that THE REASON the bais hamikdash was destroyed, was sinas chinam. And that in order to bring mashiach we need to work on our ben adam lechaveiro. That isnt really debated.

So im saying, bein adam lechaveiro sould be the top priority, the main focus, all the time. Its 1+1=2.

amother

Mauve

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 2:13 pm

little neshamala wrote:

That's what you're saying. And I guess that's what YOUR Rav is saying.

Again, I live in Lakewood, and the Rabbanim here DO choose to focus on tznius, which, honestly, they dont need mine or your permission to do.

And I DO see that bain adam lechaveiro is the main focus here, all the time.

I don't know which asifah you are referring to, but I don't know much about the politics in Monsey. I'm in Lakewood, and that's all I can comment on.

Not sure why what Lakewood does bothers you.

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 2:14 pm

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

Relax. Lakewood doesnt bother me. I like lakewood, I think you're reading too much into whati im saying. Dont get all upset, im sorry I opened my mouth. I still believe in what im saying, but its really not worth getting all upset over

(ETA I wasnt talking specifically about monsey asifas. )

Last edited by little neshamala on Fri, Jul 26 2019, 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Coral

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 2:24 pm

You can buy cheap (less than $100) lace front sheitals that look natural. I get told often when wearing them that the person speaking thought I covered.

I wear them because they are prettier and fun. My eyes stand out rather than my hairline. They are cheaper than getting my expensive sheitals washed. They are perfect for activities with the kids and perfect for rainy days.

I don't wear them when I have to conform and am going to be with people I know who are judgemental.

TriAspora

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 2:38 pm

Whether the wig is natural looking or not is a very subjective issue, so I doubt that it can be used in Halocha. I have a story to prove my point.

My first sheitel was a disaster. It was a wrong color and size for me. Besides, I wore it straight out of the box. As a BT in a different space and time, I had no access to a sheitelmacher and in the beginning had no idea that wigs can be set or even brushed. Nevertheless, more than one time, frum men who participated in community meals asked the Rebbitsin (discreetly) if I covered my hair, since they hesitated to bench in my presence. These were FFB men who grew up with women wearing nicely styled sheitels. Mine looked 100 times more wiggy, but their "sheitel radar" failed on my haystack of a wig.

That said, wig appearance can be discussed hashkafically, in the general framework of tsnius level that is socially acceptable in that community. That is no different than forbidding skirts that are too long - done by some, but for purely hashkafic, not halachic reasons.

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 3:08 pm

Btw I need to clarify I am not chas v'shalom saying I know better than any of our Rabannim, and im not trying to point fingers. Its possible asifahs are set up by askanim, and the Rabannim are not aware of what the other asifahs have been talking about.

It just strikes me that on the day where we focus on bringing mashiach, the answer and common theme is to work on ben adam lechaveiro, but the rest of the year we harp on all other topics and this one takes the side stage.

Rappel

Sat, Jul 27 2019, 2:42 pm

amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:

So if you know it's halachically acceptable, why does it make you feel uncomfortable?
If I see someone doing something different to me which my community doesn't accept, I don't feel any particular feelings towards it. Simply that's what they do, and this is what we do.

I believe I explained that in my previous post, and how I wish I didnt feel that way, since I know it's halachically okay.

Sheitels just look naked to me, somehow. I'm embarrassed whenever I see anyone in a sheitel, and it's very hard for me to look past that. It's very distracting.

soap suds

Sun, Jul 28 2019, 12:58 am

little neshamala wrote:

Tznius, or lack thereof, is something that's very much peer oriented. It's very difficult to be the one to stand out and do things differently than everyone else in the community, even when you know that it's the right thing to do.
I feel that bein adam lechavero is something everyone wants to improve on, and people respect you when you do. We don't need lectures or asifas to tell us to be nice to one another.Nobody derides you or makes snarky comments when you up your bein adam lechavero as they do when you take on something new in tznius.

Tznius, on the other hand, is such a loaded topic for most of us. It's so much easier to cut your sheitel when it becomes a 'thing' that many around you are doing. That's why asifas are necessary and helpful. Addressing it as a klal issue, and trying to get everyone to improve, makes the peer pressure easier to combat.

Just my 2 cents.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Jul 28 2019, 1:22 am

little neshamala wrote:

Rabbi Forchheimer who spoke at the Asifa has a shul. He speaks every single Shabbos twice. You’ve heard one speech of his that he spoke about tznius. I’ve heard many of his speeches over Shabbos. They focus on honesty, business, being modest (money), inclusive, tzedakah, prayer and a whole other slew of topics. Why in the world are you assuming because you’ve only heard about one speech of his that is all he speaks about. It boggles my mind how you judge.

You make it sound like Lakewood has hundreds of asifaa on tzinius. They probably had one this year. Not hundreds....

little neshamala

Sun, Jul 28 2019, 9:52 am

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

Im a little taken aback by this post. Did you read my posts?

I dont know who Rabbi Forscheimer is.
Ive never heard him speak.
Ive never heard of any of his speeches.
I never mentioned lakewood! Why are you making this about lakewood??
Im honestly not judging.
And obviously the Rabannim who speak at the asifahs talk about other topics in their other speeches. I never said otherwise! Im talking about the asifah topics specifically.

You probably didnt mean to, likely you just read the posts too fast, but you really put words in my mouth.

I genuinely want mashiach to come.
The only asifahs I hear about, besides for on tisha b'av, speak about things like tznius and shaitels. OBVIOUSLY Rabannim talk about other things in their other speeches as well! But when it comes to making a "big asifa", I never hear of one devoted towards ahavas yisrael.
Which puzzles me, because I do feel that klal yisroel can use some thunder about the importance of acceptance, not looking down on those who sin differently than you do, the extent to which we should strive for shalom, etc. If that is the reason we dont have mashiach, wouldnt it make more sense to make it a bigger focus all year long, not just on tisha b'av? I dont think anyone can say that klal yisroel is doing fine when it comes to ahavas yisroel. Just take a look at some of the threads that were shut down on imamother. Listen to all the people who dont feel accepted, look at all the factions. BH I live in a community where I see acceptance, love and chessed abound. But it would be foolish for me to say that we're perfect. Mashiach still isnt here, is it?

Last edited by little neshamala on Sun, Jul 28 2019, 10:17 am; edited 2 times in total

little neshamala

Sun, Jul 28 2019, 10:00 am

soap suds wrote:

Interesting perspective.

amother

Slategray

Sun, Jul 28 2019, 11:10 am

little neshamala wrote:

You still make it seem like you hear about lots of tzinius asifas. I’ve heard about one total. It addressed wigs in Lakewood. I haven’t heard of any others so I’m just wondering how many more tzinius asifos there are then bein Adam lchaveiro. Maybe monsey has so many?

crl

Sun, Jul 28 2019, 11:23 am

On the flip side, why does everyone’s individual observance have to be a debate, with threads like this only fueling a fire of judgement, defensiveness and possibly making people feel bad? There are valid halachic opinions that support wigs, more or less natural and there are valid opinions, chumrahs, minhagei hamakom that support a multitude of other means of covering or setting sorts of communal standards? Tznius is so personal, so nuanced and such an easy mark to cast judgement on others. Why can’t we respect what we see, assume everyone is observing or holding whatever they do for legitimate reasons (both “more” and “less”, which I say in quotes because by putting observance on levels you allow judgement of higher and lower standards without context) and work on being more open and less judgmental?

Yes, one can always ask for personal growth and intellectual curiosity (is there a halachic source for xyz) and there is always room for polite intellectual debate but in such a public forum, I feel like we constantly run the risk of doing more harm than good and might inadvertently make someone feel bad for how they personally hold.

aliavi

Sun, Jul 28 2019, 11:28 am

crl wrote:

Well said.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Jul 28 2019, 11:31 am

Reb Shimshon Pincus says that when a husband and wife get married, they establish a home where the shechinah can rest. The women has the main resting place of the shechinah because she makes the home. Now each piece of hair on a womens head (or any head) is like a straw. Its hollow in the middle. The shechinah rests in the brain of the women thats where the jewish neshamah of a child is formed. So she has to make sure to protect it and keep it covered.
Some say its not HOW you cover it just thats its kept covered. Its not really for us to see if shes wearing a shaitel or not. Some say its for her and her husband alone not so much for the outside world.

amother

Black

Thu, Dec 26 2019, 9:26 pm

Bump
This thread is really disturbing
Tznius is all about bein Adam lechaveiro!! When a woman is modest she is being sensitive to half the population- the men- ensuring they don't lose their Olam hoba by looking at her inappropriately. And she's being sensitive to all the wives by not destroying their marriages. This is the biggest chesed of all- more than making meals for people or visiting the sick. And it's the hardest chesed- just look at this thread! Women have a trendies yetzer hora to look beautiful outside- but really they are only supposed to look beautiful at home for their husbands. This is why we need lots of tznius asides- because the mitzvah of tznius/ kisui rosh is so so misunderstood. Women think they are doing a mitzvah by wearing a natural and pretty wig! When in reality they are probably causing men to notice them (hair is incredibly alluring and that's why married women are supposed to cover their hair- to keep their main beauty for their husbands only)
A wig that looks natural defeats the whole purpose of the mitzvah. The hair of a married woman is considered ervah- it has the potential to provoke men. It needs to be covered after marriage to ensure that men are not attracted to her. So wearing a wig that is as nice or nicer than ones own hair is not fulfilling the purpose of the mitzvah of kisui rosh
Many Rabbanim say this and that's why many Rabbanim talk against lace fronts, lace tops, streaking etc...
That's why many Gedolim were against today's wigs and endorse cloth head coverings as the ideal halachically (the sheitel was a big debate among poskim with many asuring the wigs) and hashkifacally

amother

Black

Thu, Dec 26 2019, 9:42 pm

There's a modern orthodox Rabbi in New York who allows his female congregants to wear loose pants but does not allow wigs in his Shul! He wrote how today's wigs are the biggest hypocrisy and he said that if a woman does want to come with a covered head in his synogogue it must be with a hat it scarf! He explains how the wigs defeat the purpose of the mitzvah of kisui rosh which is to cover erva and erva means that the body part being covered has the potential to cause s-xual attraction. So putting nice hair on top of hair is hypocritical and causing the same problem as the hair underneath the covering- making the married woman look alluring to men.
I would be careful writing about Rav Ovadia Yosef- he was brilliant and extremely learned in Halacha. One of the only areas he was stringent on was the wigs- he wrote in his teshuva that rov poskim forbade wigs (both ashkenazic and Sephardic) and he could find no heter.
He disagreed with Rav Feinstein in his teshuva and wrote it's a mitzvah to publicize this. He also showed his halachically the original heter for the wig by the shiltei giborim was not ever a heter for a wig to be worn outside the courtyard. This is why he screamed about the wigs- the Baba Sali too spoke so harshly about the wigs
It's kind of ironic that we try to be the most mehadrin in all areas except in the area that is the most important- tznius and kisui rosh. The area that has the potential to bring the most schar and the biggest punishment -the yetzer hora knows this and has literally made a mess with it