Odd theory | Imamother

ectomorph

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 6:28 pm

I've had an odd theory for a while.

I think people are more cookie cutter than they used to be. It used to be not everyone went to school. Imagine your family's idiosyncrasies but never being being away from them a significant amount of time.

I think as a result of people being more cookie cutter, there is less tolerance of differences and less acceptance of idiosyncrasies.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jul 28 2019, 8:48 am

I don't think it's odd but I don't know where the school reference fits in.
Of course this is what we're seeing. We're living in a really superficial world. Superficial means people are judged by the surface which leads to superficiality.
But there is an innate mean to be oneself. That could be why we're seeing so many different - new and never imagined - ways of s-xual definition. Parents giving their children normal names but with unique spellings. (There's a Rabbi Frand shiur at the Sinai Indaba where he speaks extensively about this.)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-F.....13410

At our best and purest, we have the concept of 12 shevatim, 12 paths, etc. But as happens in galus, this superficiality of galum Edom at its ultimate is impacting us too.

And this: when survivors rebuilt after WWII they wanted to restore what was lost. Which is beautiful, but as time goes by, there is what might be an extreme emphasis on the outer. It's happening in all circles.

I keep adding piling layer upon layer in an attempt to define where we are and how we got here and I know I'm not doing it as elegantly and coherently as I should. Here's something else to consider, working with America. In 20th century America, before and after the war, there was urgency, mission, and feelings of accomplishment through struggle. Kids were making conscious decisions to stay strong in their Yiddishkeit when it would be so easy to drift. And a generation or two these warriors were giving it over - in summer camps, JEP, NCSY, etc. Now we've "arrived". And we don't have the same opportunities to feel healthy shtoltz, azus d'kedusha, what have you. It's a problem.

zaq

Mon, Jul 29 2019, 11:16 am

I don’t think people are naturally more conforming than they ever were. I think that people are consciously and deliberately conforming because they’re afraid of the social consequences of being different in any way. And whose fault is that? All those other people who criticize anyone does anything a little bit differently.

OTOH, every society demands conformity. Even nonconformist societies nonconform in exactly the same way. Did you ever see a hippie dude with short hair and a clean-shaven face? Did you ever see a goth teen wearing a pleated skirt and a blouse with a Peter Pan collar? Sure, they refuse to conform to the Establishment but they cling like barnacles to the mores of the group with which they identify. Because these things are what identifies them as members of their group. If they all really did their own thing, how would the people in their group know that they’re part of the group?

ShishKabob

Mon, Jul 29 2019, 11:19 am

zaq wrote:

Excellent post

ectomorph

Mon, Jul 29 2019, 12:36 pm

Wow, such fascinating responses!

Thanks Nsmom and flower power

Pinkfridge, I hear what you said about azus dkedusha. I also want to note that teens search for defining themselves. In olden times, they'd be apprenticing or working. They had adult responsibilities and not as much same age peer exposure.

Laiya, yes. I didn't have a standard education, and I often feel out of touch with my same age peers as a result. Which is why I picked school. I also worked in my spare time as a teen instead of camp. Which I think made for a healthier self definition than a lot of teens who don't have responsibilities.

Zaq, I LOVE your post. What was the conforming standard in the shtetl? I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think a lot of personality and interests diversity is crushed at school. Everyone is exposed to the same educational material and culture. It used to be there was less contact w outside world which meant people developed more individually. Does that make sense?

debsey

Mon, Jul 29 2019, 12:49 pm

Sociologists talk about the homogenization of American culture. You know the way you can go to Texas or LA or Conneticut and order the same Starbucks drink or go to the same Bed Bath and Beyond.

I guess the same phenomenon holds true when everyone attends a community school. Things get standardized and homogenized.

ectomorph

Mon, Jul 29 2019, 9:39 pm

debsey wrote:

Yes, exactly. Which is good, because people from dysfunctional backgrounds get exposed to other ways of life, but also prevents kids developing more individually

Laiya

Mon, Jul 29 2019, 10:12 pm

I agree that schools don't encourage diverse areas of interest or talents that fall outside a particular box, and that's a shame. But, I don't think people in the shtetl developed their individuality, either. Life was focused on survival. Many people, and especially women, were not even literate; they didn't have the luxury of developing talents. And, conforming to the group was important to those who were part of the group.

As far as work and responsibility helping you to develop a healthy sense of self, I think it can go either way. Sometimes people who work from a young age and are not able to complete school, end up with life-long feelings of inferiority and depression.

If you had had a more standard education, would you now feel more in touch with your peers because you'd have similar interests? Or, would you have hated school because you felt your natural interests were stifled, and still feel out of touch with your peers now? (A question that can't be answered of course.)

zaq

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 6:40 am

Ecto, just how do you think homeschooling in a shtetl would expose children to greater cultural diversity and encourage individuality? If anything, I would think the opposite would be true: you’d get only your mother’s POV and no one else’s. No TV, radio or magazines to broaden your horizons. No classmates to share their family stories. (Besides, outside of big cities where secular Yidden attended gymnasia, there wasn’t all that much education, period. Where poverty is rampant and most children go out to work at an early age because the family needs the money, education is a luxury few can afford.)

You’re looking at schooling from a very American perspective. America was founded by individuals who didn’t fit in with or weren’t satisfied with their native societies and went out to find or build something that suited them. America glorifies the rugged individualist. Europe, not so much. 18th and 19th Century Europe was mostly monarchic, and monarchs seldom encourage individuality. A nation of conformists is much easier to control, and nonconformists are dangerous.

Furthermore, in times of persecution, those who are persecuted seldom try to make waves. They are more likely to strive mightily to remain below the radar by being as inconspicuous as possible. In anonymity there is a measure of safety. Individuality flourishes only in an atmosphere of freedom.

Laiya

Tue, Jul 30 2019, 8:37 am

Zaq, you said what I was trying to say only better. Want to add to this,

zaq wrote:

Furthermore, in times of persecution, those who are persecuted seldom try to make waves. They are more likely to strive mightily to remain below the radar by being as inconspicuous as possible. In anonymity there is a measure of safety. Individuality flourishes only in an atmosphere of freedom.

Some people tried to stay inconspicuous by leaving yiddishkeit altogether. The roots were different than our current otd crisis but the effects just as devastating. There are so many people who have no idea of their Jewish ancestry, and they are just a mere 3 generations away from people who were born into frum homes.

pizzapie

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 7:13 am

I wonder if the disappearance of social classes play a part. Historically people were bound by their financial status and associated with people in similar brackets to themselves. Specifically in the frum community there is nothing left of that. Everyone lives in the same neighborhoods with little differentiation between economic status. Therefore, the majority of the population are filling the same cookie molds.
As my great grandmother used to say, democracy killed America.