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Frum women in Israel forced to take off their head coverings
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 11:52 am
Idk how it works in Israel, but in the US you don't need significant evidence to keep people in jail before they're tried; it's a matter of them not being able to afford bail.
In any case, this isn't a punishment kind of thing. As others have said, it's a security measure. It's not just about checking them when they get in, people smuggle things in all the time.
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chanatron1000




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 11:56 am
A criminal is no less obligated to keep any given halacha.
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BadTichelDay




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 12:28 pm
chanatron1000 wrote:
A criminal is no less obligated to keep any given halacha.


Which halacha was violated here?

1- it's an all-women prison

2- they were frisked by female staff

3- a woman is halachically permitted to be without headcovering and with incomplete clothing in front of other women (see mikveh).
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 12:31 pm
From the end of the article:

the article, as translated by ora wrote:
A Prison Services spokesperson said in response, "The Prison Services respects the religious rights of all of prisoners, and allows religious freedom to those of all faiths. The prisoners were held in Neve Tirzah for 48 hours and released on a court order. We had not heard of this claim [note - that they were forced to wear immodest clothing], and we will look into it."


IOW there is no policy of making prisoners remove head coverings or wear pants. Which isn't to say that individual guards might not have failed to give them hareidi-friendly clothes. But it's not policy.

Like others have said, while this is a little concerning, the issue of child abuse in daycares is way way more concerning. (No, I'm not saying they definitely did it - but just like we can talk about the issue of hareidi women being forced to remove their hair coverings without concrete proof that it actually happened, we can talk about the issue of child abuse before there's an official court trial.)
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nomismommy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 1:14 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
I hear, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Just because someone did something wrong, (and it's not known how much they did or if they did anything) doesn't mean you should publicly strip them of their dignity in that type of matter.

I don't know, show their faces, names, and stuff.
But don't make them do a public aveirah.


I don't think it's stripping them of their dignity at all. Should the prison make skirts for them? If the prisoners wear pants well either make sure you don't have to go to prison or deal with it.
And I'm pretty sure the reason for not letting them keep their head covering was that they could hide a weapon I.e. knife etc underneath.

I don't feel pity for them at all. They abused kids, they shouldn't be whining about skirts and headcoverings. Treating people well is also a mitzvah. Apparently that mitzvah wasn't important to them but tznius is Banging head Can't Believe It
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 1:18 pm
Cry me a river
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 1:24 pm
nomismommy wrote:
I don't think it's stripping them of their dignity at all. Should the prison make skirts for them? If the prisoners wear pants well either make sure you don't have to go to prison or deal with it.
And I'm pretty sure the reason for not letting them keep their head covering was that they could hide a weapon I.e. knife etc underneath.

I don't feel pity for them at all. They abused kids, they shouldn't be whining about skirts and headcoverings. Treating people well is also a mitzvah. Apparently that mitzvah wasn't important to them but tznius is Banging head Can't Believe It


That's what they're accused of. While I suspect they're guilty, we don't know that yet.

The article -- or at least the google translate of the article -- is very vague as to what happened to them at the prison. Still, I can' thtink of a reason why reasonable religious accommodations cannot be made. Why can't prison uniforms accommodate a skirt? I don't see why it would be easier to smuggle something under a skirt than under loose-fitting pants. And yes, of course they would need to remove a head covering for a search -- that's a no-brainer. But allowing the women to wear a tightly-fitted doo rag (which would be more difficult to conceal something under than a loose tichel?
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Ravenclaw




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 5:04 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
I hear, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Just because someone did something wrong, (and it's not known how much they did or if they did anything) doesn't mean you should publicly strip them of their dignity in that type of matter.

I don't know, show their faces, names, and stuff.
But don't make them do a public aveirah.


Two wrongs don’t make a right.

But which wrong bothers you more and makes you want to post about says a lot.
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preciousmommy




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 5:13 pm
Ravenclaw wrote:
Two wrongs don’t make a right.

But which wrong bothers you more and makes you want to post about says a lot.


How do you know which bothers her more?

There's a difference between being upset by an individual's actions and posting about it, and being bothered by a general policy. Unfortunately, there will always be individuals acting unscrupulously. But a bad policy can be spoken about and perhaps dealt with.

(Still not sure what exactly happened here, though)
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roses




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 6:15 pm
This kind of reminds me of all the "But Lashon Hora !!" threads every time a child rapist is arrested and publicized.

Priorities, folks.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 6:18 pm
roses wrote:
This kind of reminds me of all the "But Lashon Hora !!" threads every time a child rapist is arrested and publicized.

Priorities, folks.


No no no no no.

Its more like should prisons be required to give Jewish inmates kosher food, or should they be excused from work details, and permitted to daven, on chagim.
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roses




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 7:23 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
No no no no no.

Its more like should prisons be required to give Jewish inmates kosher food, or should they be excused from work details, and permitted to daven, on chagim.


My point is the overemphasis on sympathy for the perpetrator while ignoring the actual violations of children, and their rights to live in the world unharmed. There are way too many threads started to encourage empathy for child abusers than for child victims Which is pretty pervasive with all kinds of child abuse
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 2:56 am
roses wrote:
My point is the overemphasis on sympathy for the perpetrator while ignoring the actual violations of children, and their rights to live in the world unharmed. There are way too many threads started to encourage empathy for child abusers than for child victims Which is pretty pervasive with all kinds of child abuse


Deleted because I was conflating two separate incidents


Last edited by Rappel on Wed, Jul 24 2019, 4:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 3:49 am
Ravenclaw wrote:
Two wrongs don’t make a right.

But which wrong bothers you more and makes you want to post about says a lot.


I am not convinced they were abusive. I know people who work with them and that's what they have said.

If I didn't know the story second hand I would be more disturbed about the abuse part.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 3:51 am
Rappel wrote:
True fact. Do you know what finally kicked off the police investigation? A7 reported that one of the kids' legs was broken at the daycare, and when they investigated how it happened, they discovered that it resulted from abuse from one of these women. While they were checking the security footage, they noticed a lot of other physical abuse going on, and arrested all three.



From what I understood there were no cameras up and now they are passing a law because f this and in september they will be mandatory. I did not hear these details but it could be what I heard was wrong and your are right.

EDIT: I just heard about this story now, and it's not the one in Tekoa. It's another story. The news outlets keep mixing all the stories together. Can you post a link to a source that says this happened in Tekoa?
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 4:15 am
LovesHashem wrote:
From what I understood there were no cameras up and now they are passing a law because f this and in september they will be mandatory. I did not hear these details but it could be what I heard was wrong and your are right.

EDIT: I just heard about this story now, and it's not the one in Tekoa. It's another story. The news outlets keep mixing all the stories together. Can you post a link to a source that says this happened in Tekoa?


You are absolutely correct. I was reading quickly, and confused the incidents in Tekoa and Rosh Haayin. I changed my previous post to reflect that, so I don't spread any false rumor.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 4:42 am
chanatron1000 wrote:
A criminal is no less obligated to keep any given halacha.

Including going to visit his rabbi on Yom Tov?

https://www.sefaria.org.il/Suk.....g2=en
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 9:44 am
DrMom wrote:
Talk about a misleading thread title...


right?!??! tbh I'm pretty mad now Mad
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yerushamama




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 07 2019, 5:53 am
Doe anyone know what is going on now with this abuse allegation?
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