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We don't have free will
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amother
Beige


 

Post Sun, Aug 11 2019, 1:22 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thanks for the hugs.
But I want an answer; I've spoken to many Rabbis and none can give an answer on how this constitutes free wIll. How were not just puppets doing what Hashem wants, fighting these battles cuz there's no other choice.


Maybe your free will is exerted in the battle you are choosing to fight right now. I pray Ha-Shem will help you and give you strength! I’m sorry for all that you are going through op!
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 11 2019, 2:00 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thanks for the hugs.
But I want an answer; I've spoken to many Rabbis and none can give an answer on how this constitutes free wIll. How were not just puppets doing what Hashem wants, fighting these battles cuz there's no other choice.


Why do you think you have no choice but to do Hashem's will?

There are plenty of people, who when faced with emotional battles they never asked for, chose to do the wrong things.

They wallowed in their pain and shut off the world, thinking of no one but themselves.
They turned into monsters.
They bullied, tortured, and hurt people.
They gorged themselves on earthly pleasures.

The fact that you are not doing any of those things is not because you have no choice. It's because you do have the choice and you are choosing every minute to do the right things!

The real question now is, why are you making the right choices?
Is it because of fear of what will happen in this world and the next if you don't?
Or is it because you know how much joy you bring Hashem when you fight to do the right things, no matter how much you are suffering?

Rashi and the Rambam speak about how serving Hashem out of fear is admirable, but incomparable to serving out of love. Note, they didn't say that it's wrong to serve out of fear, but rather that it is difficult to sustain. Serving out of love, on the other hand, is easy. But first you need to access that love.

If you are ok with doing the right thing because you are fearful, then keep at it. You are on a tremendous level! But if you'd like to start doing it out of love, then that is something to explore. You'd be amazed to find how much easier it will be to fight.
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amother
Mint


 

Post Sun, Aug 11 2019, 2:03 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm not talking about free will within the stupid worldy things.
Or free will to yell and abuse other people.

I mean the choice to get out of a depression.
The choice to do inner work to deal with the trauma and abuse you underwent as a child.
The choice to deal with your anger at Hashem when he gives you your 5th miscarriage in a row.

You could choose NOT to deal with your inner demons but in the long run, it'll hurt you.
Hashem is forcing things onto you, forcing you to fight or deal with those things.
If you want a good life that is, if you want to be genuinely happy.
There is not being genuinely happy without facing these problems and fighting them.
I never asked for this stuff. I never chose this stuff. I want to be happy without fighting it


Struggle with this too.
Everyone has things outside their area of bechira and within and noone else can judge about each other.

What I did was put this question aside for a few years while pursuing deep healing with non conventional therapies.
The amazing thing I find is that in all the healing world theres only healing with a deep understanding of us each owning a deeply unique spiritual path.
But I do believe putting aside the colloquialisms of frum education is necessary for a while.
Pursue real trauma healing. Take all the religious questions embrace them and then ask them to sit on the side with anger and victimhood and other states that leave me miserable. Deal with them with professional guidance bit by bit. But learn to separate and find other modes to function from.
Ironically at the beginning of my turn around I was so angry at not having been enlightened before and the years and years of pain despite my prayers and desperate attempts to heal. I was so angry because it seemed that there was no free choice.
I’m deep in the work and cant claim to be on the other side but I can say I have finally not seen this mode as my only mode. BH. With Hashems help and a lot of work and help.
Hatzlacha op and others and may you find true inner peace.
I’m not an avid true 12 stepper. Havent really worked the program. But the concept of surrendering truly changed my life. It explains it far deeper and more practically than any sefer of emuna has for me.
And then theres lots of other areas !

Praying for healing for all
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Aug 11 2019, 3:57 pm
I am making the right choices because those are the ONLY choices that will give me
- Peace
- Happiness
- Satisfaction
- Meaning

Etc.
BUT do I get to choose what I do to get those things? No, the only way to get them is by fighting, working on ourselves constantly. We slip up, bad, awful, get up and do it all over again.

So if I want to live a happy meaningful life there is no choice on how I can do that.
There's one way, and that way is full hard work, suffering, and pain.

God doesn't give us another way to receive those things.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sun, Aug 11 2019, 3:59 pm
amother [ Beige ] wrote:
Maybe your free will is exerted in the battle you are choosing to fight right now. I pray Ha-Shem will help you and give you strength! I’m sorry for all that you are going through op!


I'm not depressed.
I'm not upset.
I'm not mad at my life.

This is a logically question. Although I have someone close to me who is dealing with this question on more of a deeper emotional level and that's what prompted me to start the thread.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Sun, Aug 11 2019, 4:04 pm
I think that the girls' schools teach way too much about Gehinnom and the negative consequences of our actions. I think they talk too much about Olam HaBa and Gan Eden, as well.

Sure, we need to be aware that there is an ultimate punishment for those who do wrong. Yes, we need to know that there is reward for our good deeds.

However, this is not the point of living in this world. We're here to be representatives of Hashem. We're here to struggle to bring G-d into our lives and into the world. We're here to fight the good fight, not always to win. We're here to keep fighting and not to give up.

If you look at it from that perspective, of course we have free will. We have free will to make next time better, even if 1000 times have been bad. We have free will to turn things around until our last breath.

If we find even small times in our lives where we choose right, we've taken a step. Even if we fall, it doesn't negate the step.

I don't know, I don't like to think about heaven and h-ll. I find it depressing to live to ward off punishment. I even find it somewhat anticlimactic to live just for the reward at the end.

I live to try to connect to G-d as much as possible. I'm not very good at it right now, but I keep trying. And I celebrate the small victories.
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behappy2




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 11 2019, 4:05 pm
Having 5 miscarriages is not part of free will. That's part of life, or Hashem's plan. Working through your feelings is part of free will. But free will is really a very small window because we need our efforts to be blessed. Does this make sense? Does it answer your question? Just as an aside we have lots of questions when we are in pain. Maybe it helps us distract from feeling it and being with it?
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amother
Aubergine


 

Post Sun, Aug 11 2019, 6:31 pm
To put it in simple terms, I once heard that this paradox can be explained by saying that Hashem has tomorrow’s newspaper. Does that help?
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amother
Mint


 

Post Sun, Aug 11 2019, 6:44 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm not depressed.
I'm not upset.
I'm not mad at my life.

This is a logically question. Although I have someone close to me who is dealing with this question on more of a deeper emotional level and that's what prompted me to start the thread.



If you are asking a question based on someone else’s life you will never be answered bc we each have our own unique, spiritual path that no one else can fathom.
If you are asking a purely logical question, - Rambam says in hilchos Teshuva that the paradox between Hashems Yediya and our bechira is unfathomable. Quite frankly thats the only approach that resonates with me.

(Aside for the fact that Hashem is beyond time , so “knowing” future and past is irrelevant. )
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amother
Beige


 

Post Sun, Aug 11 2019, 6:57 pm
Work,suffering and pain to achieve happiness is free will. Op, you can overcome or you can submit, just like you said.

Any happiness that I have in this life is because I worked hard for it, Free will is never free! We don’t always get the choices we want! But then, Baruch Ha-Shem there are miracles that can change the whole plan around.
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Angel




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 12 2019, 2:27 am
Op! You sound like a strong person to me!! Who is wise? The one who looks at the future!
You actually CHOSE to be happy! You chose your path. Because you look at the future and see that this is the path that will help you. Unlike others who CHOOSE without looking at the future and that is why they end up depressed.

Applause Hug Applause Hug Applause Hug Applause Hug

Good Luck on your search for more answers, if you ever do find a Rav who was able to answer your question to your satisfaction, please come back and enlighten us.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Mon, Aug 12 2019, 3:06 am
Going amother because of personal details.
Who says that we have to fight our inner demons alone?
I have committed a suicide attempt in the past and been on antidepressant medications. Now I'm not, but sometimes I still get compulsive suicidal thoughts. If I'm in a high building or on a bridge, chances are the thought of jumping will creep into my head. When I drive in my car, sometimes the thought of ripping the wheel around and crashing into a wall or tree or oncoming traffic will creep up on me. That has nothing to do with free will. It is an illness and I know it. These thoughts are not the real me. In those moments I turn to Hashem and ask for help in erasing the diseased thoughts. I don't fight epic battles inside myself.The bad choices are not any will. Nothing to do with choice. They are just a brain problem that I need to switch off. I ask for help to get rid of it even if I have to keep davening for a long time, and it does help me.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Mon, Aug 12 2019, 3:26 am
I read Victor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" over 9 av. I think his ideas, logotherapy, would help you a lot and I highly recommend reading it.
He was (not frum) in the concentration camps, and he talks about following his fate - as you say, without "free will," and finding meaning even in the lowliest, worst circumstances give a person a reason to live, like the Torah idea of finding meaning in suffering or under any conditions through your free will to react - how you choose to meet the challenge.
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Mon, Aug 12 2019, 3:44 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm not talking about free will within the stupid worldy things.
Or free will to yell and abuse other people.

I mean the choice to get out of a depression.
The choice to do inner work to deal with the trauma and abuse you underwent as a child.
The choice to deal with your anger at Hashem when he gives you your 5th miscarriage in a row.

You could choose NOT to deal with your inner demons but in the long run, it'll hurt you.
Hashem is forcing things onto you, forcing you to fight or deal with those things.
If you want a good life that is, if you want to be genuinely happy.
There is not being genuinely happy without facing these problems and fighting them.
I never asked for this stuff. I never chose this stuff. I want to be happy without fighting it


Well you have a free will, as I said above some people choose suicide. Some choose to fight. Some choose alcohol or drugs abuse. So there is definitely free will, you can choose how you deal with it or if you wanna deal with it.
It's hard and life is hard actually for a lot of people. And a lot of people fight and work through their trauma. You choose between life and death and you choose between happiness and being unhappy.
Hashem isn't forcing you .. but if you want to be happy you'll have to work for it.
Life unfortunately doesn't work that way: I want to be happy, hashem give me all the things that make me happy. That would be too easy. No work on our part.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 12 2019, 4:27 am
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
We absolutely do.

Try to find a Rabbi you trust and he will properly explain it to you. Any questions such as this should be directed at talmidei chachamim


I'd phrase this differently. Finding a talmid chochom (or a great wise woman) IRL to help process whatever's going on would be profoundly helpful. But we here should be able to articulate a good basic answer, as posters have done so far.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 12 2019, 4:29 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I'm not talking about free will within the stupid worldy things.
Or free will to yell and abuse other people.

I mean the choice to get out of a depression.
The choice to do inner work to deal with the trauma and abuse you underwent as a child.
The choice to deal with your anger at Hashem when he gives you your 5th miscarriage in a row.

You could choose NOT to deal with your inner demons but in the long run, it'll hurt you.
Hashem is forcing things onto you, forcing you to fight or deal with those things.
If you want a good life that is, if you want to be genuinely happy.
There is not being genuinely happy without facing these problems and fighting them.
I never asked for this stuff. I never chose this stuff. I want to be happy without fighting it


And this is the subtext that no one addressed. It was obvious that you are in some sort of pain. And yes, someone of stature IRL if possible to help you through the hashkafa tangle, along with whatever professional help you can get, will beH be helpful. I really hope so. Big, big hugs!!!

ETA: FF, hugs to you too!
And this is what I get for replying to posts as I read them. I see you have done your HW. I don't know what to say. When I think about this too much my head comes close to exploding. All I know is that I am convinced that we have the best way to live to deal with these paradoxes. Like you said, you choose the most life-affirming choices and kol hakavod to you for doing it.

I don't know if you'll ever get THE answer, but if you ever get one that satisfies you, please share it.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 12 2019, 8:52 am
Each person has some choices in life that are "chocolate vs bugs" choices for them, and some choices that are difficult for them.

I BH have enough money for food, housing, and the other basics. And no drug habit. The question of whether or not to rob an elderly neighbor and use the money to buy drugs is chocolate vs bugs for me.

For some people it's a real dilemma.

OTOH there are also things that are hard for me that I assume others wouldn't be tempted by.

Sometimes the choice isn't in what to do, exactly, more in how to do it. If you have a broken leg, "get this fixed or not" isn't really a big exercise in use of free will. But there are all kinds of little tests - the doctor isn't being very friendly; speak to her sharply or kindly? There's a long wait to be released; yell at the receptionist or be patient? A kid is running and almost knocks you off your crutches, yell at him and his parents, or shrug it off? Etc.

Also with trauma. For some people, treating trauma is chocolate vs bugs. But they have other choices to make in life. Hate their neighbor who's a jerk or forgive him, download a video game or pay for it, read a trashy novel or study Torah, give the minimum to tzedaka or give generously... etc.

tl;dr - some life choices are obvious, but not all of them are. it's the latter category where we exercise free will.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 12 2019, 8:59 am
You also have to draw the distinction between choice, and circumstance.

I have no say in when or where or to who I was born, my DNA, my bone structure, my education as a child, my siblings...etc.

I have limited say over things like my health, my appearance, my finances.

Those things are circumstance, or at least part circumstance. That's not what free will is about. When people say 'we have free will' they don't mean we have the power to decide whether or not to be rich, whether or not to be young and beautiful, etc. Only that we have the power to choose whether or not to be good and to do the right thing, within the set of circumstances we were given.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 12 2019, 11:48 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I am making the right choices because those are the ONLY choices that will give me
- Peace
- Happiness
- Satisfaction
- Meaning

Etc.
BUT do I get to choose what I do to get those things? No, the only way to get them is by fighting, working on ourselves constantly. We slip up, bad, awful, get up and do it all over again.

So if I want to live a happy meaningful life there is no choice on how I can do that.
There's one way, and that way is full hard work, suffering, and pain.

God doesn't give us another way to receive those things.


I can't disagree. But maybe it can be suggested that part of the hard work is reframing, constantly. Looking at things with an ayin tova, being dlkz as much as is appropriate. There are people who have lived through serious pain and suffering yet weren't defined by it.
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