S/O Is veganism against Jewish values?

Teomima

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 5:09 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Slaves are also ok according to the Torah.
The oldest son inherits double according to the Torah.
A parent should hit his child according to the Torah, in order to discipline him.
A woman's place is in the home, according to the Torah.
An enemy woman can be captured, shaved, set aside and then (if the Hebrew soldier so desires) forcibly married and raped.
Etc etc etc
We have evolved our interpretations of Torah over history. We dont live exactly the way they lived during the biblical era.

A lot of the norms above were necessary then, not now.

amother

Salmon

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 7:16 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

No halachos have changed, there are just sometimes situations in which they don't apply.

If there's no will then the oldest son DOES inherit double. And the daughters don't get anything. That's why it's very important to write a will.

Wait. So why would you write a will that is against the norms the Torah sets out? Why wouldn't you want to uphold the Torah norms?

It is hypocritical to say that it's ok to write a will according to modern western norms (all kids inherit equally, regardless of gender or birth order), while insisting davka veganism is a new-fangled ideology we cannot accept.

(And btw, it's not true that if there's no will the son does inherit double. At least I don't know any one who rules like that anymore. Definitely not legal in Israel, unless all siblings go to Beit Din and actively sign they are willing to do that).

amother

Babypink

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 7:18 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

(And btw, it's not true that if there's no will the son does inherit double. At least I don't know any one who rules like that anymore. Definitely not legal in Israel, unless all siblings go to Beit Din and actively sign they are willing to do that).

I know of a case where the father died suddenly and this is definitely what happened with them. That's the halacha though I guess in some circles they might find a way around it.

amother

Salmon

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 7:24 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

I know of more than one case where the father died suddenly and this is what happened. That's the halacha.

Interesting. I guess all the siblings were charedi in such a case, and agreed to follow this interpretation.
Otherwise, I can't see this flying in any western country; the siblings would contest.

In any case, my parents left no will. When my father died, all of us siblings went to Beit Hadin (in Israel) and the inheritance was automatically split equally. They may have asked us how we want to split, I don't remember, but that's what happened.
(If any of the siblings had feared our older brother would insist on more, then we would have gone to civil court, I guess).

amother

Babypink

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 8:40 am

They are charedi/yeshivish (not in Israel). But, in that case you can say that in the same circles where veganism might be frowned upon, they also make sure to keep those other halachos. So the argument is kind of moot. (Though I myself don't actually have an opinion one way or the other on veganism, I've never looked into it. I was just pointing out that the premise regarding the other halachos isn't necessarily correct.)

Laiya

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 9:06 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

But what is a single halachic or rabbinical source, from any time period, that says that animals are NOT here for us to use?

That said, I agree with OP, that the conditions used in modern animal processing are a far cry from the way animals were treated throughout history, and it's disturbing. But then you're not saying that halacha evolved, you're saying that Torah does not support cruelty to living creatures, and that's not a new concept.

urban gypsy

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 9:21 am

PinkFridge wrote:

There's a quote by Dr. Temple Grandin in an old Kashrus Magazine re her working with Rabbi Heinemann in designing a more human slaughter house. She said she felt very at peace with the product.
There's no question though that her work was needed.

WHAT????????????????? How cool I LOVE Dr. Grandin!
That is so exciting!!! Do you by any chance have access to this article?

amother

Salmon

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 9:36 am

Laiya wrote:

Not necessarily that halacha evolved, but that the norms whereby we live halachic lives evolve.
No where does it say we MUST eat animal products. Yet the Torah does prohibit צער בעלי חיים. So you could say that under today's conditions, it is more halachically correct to be vegan (have you seen how they grind up all the male chicks they dont need, just so you can have cheap eggs?)

I actually find it shocking that meat and dairy today is even kosher, considering the horrific circumstances under which they are produced.

(And in fact, even if in some ultimate utopia, we start mass producing animal products with less cruelty, there is still tzaar involved, and there is no chiyuv that we MUST consume them).

dancingqueen

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 9:46 am

daagahminayin wrote:

It could be that veganism will fit in very appropriately with a Torah values when Mashiach comes. By then humanity will be so elevated that the thought of taking any life will be abhorrent to us in ways that it is not to most of us now, and was not to most people throughout history. Science may have progressed enough too, so that by this time we will be eating stem cell meat and not notice the difference. I believe Rav Kook said that the korbanos in the 3rd Beis HaMikdash might not use animals.

I also heard that, and that rambam might also support that ideal.

I’m a meat eater and not planning to be vegan in this lifetime. But I have been a little taken aback reading on imamother that some seem to have a bit of a fleishigs f€tish. Like dinner must be fleishigs every night, no one can get full on dairy. It seems a bit over the top to me.

Laiya

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 9:56 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

That's exactly what I said, that we're not permitted to be cruel to animals acc. to the Torah.

But does the Torah have any issues with use of animals or animal products if there is no cruelty? I have never heard of any source for that, and in fact I think this concept, that it's wrong to use animals, period, is the beginning of the road toward atheism.

I have a vegan friend. If you would ask her this: Is it ok to keep a pet chicken in my backyard and eat its eggs--iow, the chicken is being kept under excellent conditions, it's allowed to wander around the yard, it's not being harmed, and we'll continue to raise the male chicks as pets.

She would say, NO, that's still wrong, and she would still not eat such eggs. Because a chicken's eggs belong to the chicken, and it's wrong for a human being to use them. And, it's wrong to keep a chicken in captivity. Even if it has a yard to wander in, it should be left alone in nature.

This stems from her underlying belief in atheism. If there's no G-d, then all living things are sharing this world equally, and no life is better than another. My life as a human is not intrinsically more valuable than the life of my pet chicken, and what gives me the right, just because I was born as a human, to steal the chicken's eggs and keep the chicken in captivity?

amother

Salmon

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 10:02 am

Veganism is a spectrum, just like any ideology.
Some believe it's wrong to use animals at all. Those are against having pets, for example.

But even someone who doesnt want to impinge on an animal's freedom is not going against halacha. We were given the animals for our use, not told we HAVE to use them.

In any case, this is all a moot argument. I would say your friend, who refuses to eat freely laid eggs, is much more halachically correct than all the very 'frum' people who eat omelettes whose production required a dozen male chicks get ground up alive.

cbsp

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 10:12 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Source?
Because without it you've just publicly accused most of klal Yisroel of a grave sin.

Laiya

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 10:19 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Ok, but this is exactly the point. In Judaism, intent matters. If the reason you are vegan is because you believe that animals and humans have equal intrinsic value, that belief is antithetical to Torah.

amother

Salmon

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 10:27 am

cbsp wrote:

Source?
Because without it you've just publicly accused most of klal Yisroel of a grave sin.

Source????????
Grinding up chicks alive is צער בעלי חיים. No doubt about it.
Yes, IMO that's a worse aveira than refusing to eat meat at all, even though Hashem gave the animals for our use.
(And I do eat eggs sometimes. I am not a vegan. But I am uncomfortable with the approach that says vegans are anti-Torah but eating eggs today, with all it entails, is just fine. It's hypocrisy).

Perhaps I should reverse it and ask, where is your source that eating eggs (knowing chicks were ground alive), is halachically preferable to being vegan?

Because it seems people here are very happy to accuse vegan Jews of aveirot, but bristle when they are accused themselves.

dankbar

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 11:04 am

I didnt read entire thread.

Hashem created world creations in different levels.
Domem, Tzomeach, Chaya, Medaber.

Each higher level feeds off from lower level of creation physically to sustain the world & spiritually, it gets its tikkun & gets elevated to higher level of creation when being consumed by higher level.
It goes up in madreiga.
Plants need soil, water to grow.
Chayas beheimas eat off plants & smaller animals than themselves
Then Humans consume animal & their products. Thus elevating them to highest level.
When goes through this chain, the lowest level goes through the stages & from lowest level can get to the top.

amother

Aqua

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 12:27 pm

Tsaar baalei chaim it’s against Jewish values
The way things were done before it’s very different from today
I stopped eating meat after seeing all what the cows go though till the schita .
I can’t undertand how rabbis give Hashgacha to meat and food that the animals had to go though some much suffering.
No .I don’t think that life of a cow it’s the same as a human being