My 7 yr old is getting out of control

amother

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:06 pm

He is such an interesting kid, it boggles my mind.

Over shabbos and Sunday we went through his rollercoaster of moods--we've actually started calling them Dr. Jeykll and Mr. Hyde "modes". When he was home "sick" he was fine, pleasant, aware of the consequences of not going to school (there was a shalom zachor of his rebbe's son and we told him that if he's sick we can't go) and he was all ok with it, asking us to bring him stuff. Being that this was a family that we all have shaychus too, and he wasn't contagious for anything, we told him that if he could behave, then we'd take him. (We debated about the message it would send if he did go, but I felt that ultimately if we challenged him to behave and he did then if we didn't hold our end, then he'd have no incentive to behave and then I'd be missing out b/c I was friendly with the mother tood). Before Shabbos, he was not the most cooperative, not helping get ready for Shabbos, complaining and cheppering his siblings, but then once Shabbos came in and he ate and was better, there was no reason not to take him. And he was good and we were happy parents. He was even reminding his siblings of proper behavior etc. Then Shabbos day we had several visits from Mr. Hyde until late Shabbos afternoon I heard crying from my kids in the basement, he was threatening to throw a wicker basket at them if they tried crossing the room. That was the last straw, I had him for a timeout with me in the bathroom, 9/10 times he goes and then he's in a better mood but this was like the 3rd time that day that he'd been acting up so I told him we're not leaving until something comes out. This time he kept insisting that he didn't have to go, and I sat there with him until he started crying--and I could see and sense the behavior changing, and after that he was much better. He was much better towards the end of Shabbos, he sat with me, I read to him--something he almost never wants to do with me (calls reading boring). We had a long conversation about things, his behavior, and other things. I told him after Shabbos something that we wanted to do on Sunday, and he said that he liked that activity and he was ok with it and we went and we all had a good time.
It's almost like he doesn't remember what he's doing when he's Mr. Hyde. Historically, he's not a very good liar, I can usually tell. So I know that one correlation I've seen with his behavior is that often after a Mr. Hyde episode I was finding dirty underwear in the bathroom. He was kind of sneaky about it at first, the laundry chute is in my bedroom and sometimes he'd claim to be "looking for something in his closet". Then the underwear would just lay in the bathroom, and I'd ask him about it in a loving, sensitive way--but he'd be adamant that it's "not his"--and I'm like, "who else?" I mean I'm glad he's taking the initiative to take care of it himself, but just put the underwear in the laundry. I've tried asking the doctor about it, but without anything to go on, not much help. Of all of my kids his fiber intake is probably the weakest, but he never complains of his stomach hurting or any other symptoms, so I really have no idea what's going on. When given the opening to talk to the doctor, he didn't. But there have been other things too that I could've sworn he did in a Mr. Hyde moment and when he's back to Dr. Jekyll, he claims to have no recollection of what or why he was doing things so that he can regulate his behavior. And even when he's Dr. Jekyll he'll go to the bathroom no problem, so its not like he's resistant to the bathroom.
I would try to alter his diet, but he's SOOO picky and SOOO resistant to new foods at the moment that I don't know what to take out/add in.
I always like to think--ah! We've made progress, but then Mr. Hyde comes back and NOTHING works. We've talked about using words to express problems, and how I can't read his mind to know what's going on. We've done social stories, and when he's Dr. Jekyll he acknowledges them and he's FINE. When he's Mr. Hyde-- I just want to lock the "vilde chaya" in a cage until he calms down--we've never done that. At most we've stood holding his door shut for a few minutes--and remember when we've done that it's been for our safety b/c he's been throwing stuff at us or biting us. But its like there's no carry over of the interventions that we've done and the tantrums that we've experienced. There's this "look" in his eyes and the way he cocks his head he's just a different person when this is happening.
Its the Dr. Jeykll in him that makes me think that its not ADHD, not ODD--b/c he is in control and acting like a normal 7 y/o. But when Mr. Hyde is in the room, we are left scratching our heads!

Rappel

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:21 pm

Does he really seem like a different person during the episodes? No memory at all once he reverts to reasonable? If that's the case, then you may need to begin exploring a split personality/multiple personality issue.

amother

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:45 pm

Rappel wrote:

It's hard to say whether he "doesn't remember" or he's not telling the truth. It was only this summer that for the first time he said a lie, and really didn't let on (we caught him on it, but it was very subtle). He's a very sensitive kid and is easily embarrassed so he has told non-truths to avoid embarrassment, but what's odd is that even when I pull him aside so as not to embarrass him he gives me these credible-sounding "I didn't do it looks" where I have no choice but to believe him but its like you're the only one who would do it. My other kids are not nearly as sneaky and are much more reliable overall.

He went through an episode this past school year where his "highly desireable" snack kept disappearing, and he would want another one when he came home. Yes its a yummy snack and it is "only for school" he would have NO recollection of where he last had it, or who might be taking it, or when or anything. This kid has an AMAZING memory in general--remembers very subtle details of events that happened when he was very young, (when he was evaluated his Working Memory which is a different kind of memory was in the 99th percentile at 4 yrs old) but can't recall what happened to his snack that day? We would say "no, you have to be more responsible." which would cause a tantrum b/c "It's not fair" and then not-so-coincidentally, I would find wrappers in the snack closet, and be like "who is sneaking the snack??" He would flat out deny how the wrappers got there. That snack is kept out of reach of most of the kids. Hmmm... But when he's telling the truth he usually has this very remorseful cry to the point where he really sounds hurt--emotionally, and he would say "my snack disappeared and I dont' know" and I wasn't sure if it was someone taking it, or taking advantage of him but after I spoke to a teacher about it, it seemed to have improved.

I've put in a call to his pediatrician to ask about PANDAS, b/c some of the symptomology do sound right, but its the cyclical nature throughout the day. The fact that he has some REALLY good moments, that has me puzzled.

Rappel

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:50 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

So, he would have two different kind of snack "disappearances"? What did the teacher do which made things better/resolved the disappearances completely?

flower2

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 3:03 pm

1st- see pediatrician for appt to discuss behavioral and bathroom issues and r/o organic cause
2nd- get referral from pediatrician and/or relief for complete neuropsych eval

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 4:06 pm

THe bathroom issues are part of it. Please please seek out a PANDAS specialist.

I can not stress enough the importance of magnesium taurate/threonate for a child like this, as well as trace minerals.

amother

Burgundy

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 4:39 pm

His up and down behaviors are classic of PANDAS. Many parents use the same Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde metaphor when explaining these children. They have inflammation in their brain that causes these fluctuating behaviors. Like all illnesses, symptoms come and go. Think migraines, IBS or the like. There are times these patients may feel fine and other times they are completely unwell. Exact same with these children. Some say they seem possessed or almost like they have dementia and very fuzzy or uncertain memories during those episodes. Please explore PANDAS and all possible health issues before searching for a psychiatric diagnosis that focuses on symptoms and not on overall health or a cure.

amother

Navy

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 4:53 pm

It very well could be PANDAS, but even if not, it could still be overgrowth from a different type of bacteria. (Pandas is related to group A strep bacteria) The bacterial overgrowth causes the body and brain to become inflamed with symptoms just like you describe. You should really consider going to an integrative practitioner who can do comprehensive lab testing to get to the root of this.

amother

Wheat

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 6:51 pm

I really feel for you. I would suggest going to a good nearby hospital's mental/behavioral health clinic. You are seen by residents who are supervised by attending physicians. I've heard from people I know in a similar situation that received very good care (and they accepted their insurance). I think that medication could definitely be an option. I want to give you encouragement. I've seen many children similar to what you describe, turn out to be wonderful, productive adolescents and adults. It's challenging, but don't get discouraged. You recognize that there is a problem and you're trying to address it. You've taken the first step.

amother

Turquoise

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 9:09 pm

Have you discussed this with your pediatrician? The pediatrician is the first person you should discuss this with followed by a physiatrist if needed. I know you have experience in this field but you are also not subjective here. With ADHD, the sooner you medicate the better. My daughter has been on medication since before she was 7 and although the issues didn’t disappear it’s been a major improvement. The medication doesn’t work much for us at home (on school days) since it wears off by then but it helps her understand how it is to feel “normal” and be in control of her frustration and anger. CBT and other therapies can only work in conjunction with medication because he can’t control himself and it isn’t even his fault.

Edited to add: note: not every kid with a mental health or behavioral issue has pandas!!!!!!

imanewmom2010

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 9:14 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

He actually sounds like a classic Pandas case...
Food restriction, major behaviour changes, and the up and down pattern of good vs.bad.
If he had many ear or strep infections as a young kid or you are in a country where he could've gotten a tick bite, this could've resulted in PANS.
Please check pandasnetwork.org for symptom information and names of doctors in your area who treat it.

pandas isn’t the cause of all psychiatric issues! Somehow our community feels more comfortable with medical diagnosis then mental health diagnosesand try to turn all issues into medical problems when in essence they aren’t

amother

Brunette

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 9:41 pm

imanewmom2010 wrote:

The pandas/lyme/co-infection community disagrees with you

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 9:50 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

True, but why would you put a child with a developing brain on psych meds without ruling out other possibilities?

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 9:56 pm

OP, one more question, do you live in an older home? Have you had your home tested for mold? Can cause serious problems for some kids.

amother

Papaya

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 10:04 pm

OP, I just read your first post.

I'm not sure what the problem is - he sounds like a very normal seven year old boy. Honestly.

Some children can be a bit more challenging than others, and he does sound more challenging than some others, but not pathologically so.

I think your best bet would be finding a parenting expert that can guide you on a day to day basis.

amother

Mint

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 10:30 pm

imanewmom2010 wrote:

pandas isn’t the cause of all psychiatric issues! Somehow our community feels more comfortable with medical diagnosis then mental health diagnosis and try to turn all issues into medical problems when in essence they aren’t

Tell me about it! Pandas, I'm cool with that, mental health, not so cool Can't Believe It

me01

Mon, Sep 16 2019, 10:50 pm

imanewmom2010 wrote:

There's a very simple and benevelont reason for this- it's not because psychiatric sounds worse. Think about it. It's because psychiatric issues can't be cured (or proven) while medical issues often times can be completely reversed.

What is psychiatric anyway? It's just the behavioral/emotional functions of the brain. Sounds pretty neurological and medical to me. And thus, as is no different than other brain issues, exploring underlying medical issues is a must.

tichellady

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 1:21 am

No advice, just sending hugs. Sounds like you have a lot on your plate! I hope you are able to help him!

behappy2

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 7:15 am

#BestBubby wrote:

This thread is a lot like the "husband potched 5 year old thread".

You know, for thousands of years the behavior you describe was virtually non-existent. Parents would "nip in the bud" all rebellious behavior by age 3.

That's not true and extremely hurtful to someone who has a very challenging child.

amother

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 10:21 am

amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:

OP, one more question, do you live in an older home? Have you had your home tested for mold? Can cause serious problems for some kids.

We've had this issue with him dating back 3 different locations--its been increasing in intensity since he was 3 years old. We just moved to this house a year ago, and not mold specifically but there was some treatment for a possible mold-like condition, so I'm not so worried about that.

Pediatrician said with no significant strep history unlikely to be PANDAS. I can recall one episode of strep with him, but I think this issue started before that. He recommended psychological treatment. There's a social worker that worked with him last year and she just sent out the form to start working with him again.

With regard to "normal 7 year-old"--I really don't think the intensity of the tantrums that I deal with are "normal." I've worked with 1st-2nd grade boys before having kids.

I told the teacher to tell him to put the snack on her desk during recess so that no one would take it and that seemed to help.