My 7 yr old is getting out of control

amother

Papaya

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 10:26 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

We've had this issue with him dating back 3 different locations--its been increasing in intensity since he was 3 years old. We just moved to this house a year ago, and not mold specifically but there was some treatment for a possible mold-like condition, so I'm not so worried about that.

Pediatrician said with no significant strep history unlikely to be PANDAS. I can recall one episode of strep with him, but I think this issue started before that. He recommended psychological treatment. There's a social worker that worked with him last year and she just sent out the form to start working with him again.

With regard to "normal 7 year-old"--I really don't think the intensity of the tantrums that I deal with are "normal." I've worked with 1st-2nd grade boys before having kids.

I told the teacher to tell him to put the snack on her desk during recess so that no one would take it and that seemed to help.

You've worked with kids in a school setting. You didn't see them at home.

Look, everything has a diagnosis today but honestly I think this is within normal range. There are lots of boys (and even girls) doing similar things, the parents just not telling you about it. Which is not to say that it shouldn't be dealt with - of course it should. And if you can find a therapist or parenting expert to guide you I think that's the way to go here.

amother

Wheat

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 10:41 am

I think OP is right, that this is not within range of normal 7 year old behavior. Not caring if he causes a car accident is not typical acting out. I had similar experience, and medication definitely helped. Re a psychiatrist, who dispenses medication...I don't think it is necessary to have a frum practitioner for that. Are all your doctor's frum? Re therapy, someone who understands our culture is certainly helpful, but not necessarily a requirement (unless he won't cooperate otherwise). You should try getting a full evaluation from your school district. It really sounds like ADHD/ODD to me. He is having tremendous difficulty in impulse control and regulating his emotions. Therapy alone (imo) is like treating asthma or diabetes with therapy. It is a medical condition. If a professional feels medication is warrrented, you really don't have anything to lose by trying it. Best of luck, I'm really rooting for you.

mommy201

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 12:52 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

I have a seven year old so I hear you, but unforatently most of it is normal, part of his development...

It's always good to disscuss it with a professional, but please don't label him!

At one point I was sure my son was a psychopath Can't Believe It

until I discussed it with his gp - most of these things are normal for this stage.

I agree with this. I wouldn't be too quick too label him either, most of the things sound pretty normal and within range for his age.

mommy201

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 1:00 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

While in general I do agree, but the degree that he's pushing buttons and testing the limits, lack of reasoning or willing to give in, is getting extreme. I've worked with kids this age for a long time, and while I'm somewhat new to parenting, his behaviors go against all my experience and training. We've really tried avoiding any label but my husband and I who really don't want to potch, really do want to try a positive approach with him, he just sucks all the desire out of us to "be nice to him"-- of course I don't want to anything to hurt him, but when he takes his brother's homework and crumples it up and "doesn't care" and I try holding/hugging him, and he's biting and spitting at me. I don't have many options.

In school he's been "treading water"--staying afloat, but that he's not the "easiest student" I'm told that he's part of an "Active chevra", in camp this summer he had to be "punished" with some other students for not listening and while he was not considered the "ring leader" I agreed with the way that they handled the situation b/c it was becoming a problem. So far this year he's not been in school that much, they started end of august, we went away for Labor Day weekend, and he had a procedure that kept him out 2 days last week and today he "felt sick". He tells me he hates school and its stupid and boring.

Every child is not going to be according to work experience or training. Sometimes people had their older ones easier and then had a "tough kid" later on in life. They should have tons of experience no? Part of the reason we have children is to test us on our middos and on us changing.

Nothing in the above sounds too out of the ordinary. I could definitely understand that its so difficult to keep on going when dealing with all of this.

I see that you mentioned holding him and hugging him which is great. But, there is also a lot of punishment, frustration and threatening. And these negative times are not enough to combat the time where you try being empathetic. I think you need to change your mindset on him - think of him as a good kid with a lot of healthy activeness which he can incorporate in amazing ways. Try not to let your mind even think of him as a "terrorist" , difficult.... Take a deep breath and try seeing him with compassion as a child who needs your help to show him the way.

mommy201

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 1:04 pm

amother [ Khaki ] wrote:

My 7 year old sounds so similar to yours. I just wanted to humbly suggest that it sounds like you are letting yourself get pulled into power struggles and non-age-appropriate overly detailed discussions with him. Your son is 7. When he says he wants xyz, you can say, sorry sheifele, I said no. No logical reasoning necessary, and you see it doesn't help anyway.
A great therapist suggested to me joining with your kid in fantasy. "Wow, wouldn't you love to drive around in a fancy car? Which part would you like about it? We could drive in it together..." Get animated. Giving what he wants in fantasy can really build your connection with him and "disarm" him. At the end, you can give a quick disclaimer, "of course this was just for pretend, totty and I are ok with the car we have right now"
As far as where he is getting the language from, that comes from school, unfortunately. It's par for the course. Ignore it, don't let it get a rise out of you.

This!

mommy201

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 1:09 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

He is such an interesting kid, it boggles my mind.

Over shabbos and Sunday we went through his rollercoaster of moods--we've actually started calling them Dr. Jeykll and Mr. Hyde "modes". When he was home "sick" he was fine, pleasant, aware of the consequences of not going to school (there was a shalom zachor of his rebbe's son and we told him that if he's sick we can't go) and he was all ok with it, asking us to bring him stuff. Being that this was a family that we all have shaychus too, and he wasn't contagious for anything, we told him that if he could behave, then we'd take him. (We debated about the message it would send if he did go, but I felt that ultimately if we challenged him to behave and he did then if we didn't hold our end, then he'd have no incentive to behave and then I'd be missing out b/c I was friendly with the mother tood). Before Shabbos, he was not the most cooperative, not helping get ready for Shabbos, complaining and cheppering his siblings, but then once Shabbos came in and he ate and was better, there was no reason not to take him. And he was good and we were happy parents. He was even reminding his siblings of proper behavior etc. Then Shabbos day we had several visits from Mr. Hyde until late Shabbos afternoon I heard crying from my kids in the basement, he was threatening to throw a wicker basket at them if they tried crossing the room. That was the last straw, I had him for a timeout with me in the bathroom, 9/10 times he goes and then he's in a better mood but this was like the 3rd time that day that he'd been acting up so I told him we're not leaving until something comes out. This time he kept insisting that he didn't have to go, and I sat there with him until he started crying--and I could see and sense the behavior changing, and after that he was much better. He was much better towards the end of Shabbos, he sat with me, I read to him--something he almost never wants to do with me (calls reading boring). We had a long conversation about things, his behavior, and other things. I told him after Shabbos something that we wanted to do on Sunday, and he said that he liked that activity and he was ok with it and we went and we all had a good time.
It's almost like he doesn't remember what he's doing when he's Mr. Hyde. Historically, he's not a very good liar, I can usually tell. So I know that one correlation I've seen with his behavior is that often after a Mr. Hyde episode I was finding dirty underwear in the bathroom. He was kind of sneaky about it at first, the laundry chute is in my bedroom and sometimes he'd claim to be "looking for something in his closet". Then the underwear would just lay in the bathroom, and I'd ask him about it in a loving, sensitive way--but he'd be adamant that it's "not his"--and I'm like, "who else?" I mean I'm glad he's taking the initiative to take care of it himself, but just put the underwear in the laundry. I've tried asking the doctor about it, but without anything to go on, not much help. Of all of my kids his fiber intake is probably the weakest, but he never complains of his stomach hurting or any other symptoms, so I really have no idea what's going on. When given the opening to talk to the doctor, he didn't. But there have been other things too that I could've sworn he did in a Mr. Hyde moment and when he's back to Dr. Jekyll, he claims to have no recollection of what or why he was doing things so that he can regulate his behavior. And even when he's Dr. Jekyll he'll go to the bathroom no problem, so its not like he's resistant to the bathroom.
I would try to alter his diet, but he's SOOO picky and SOOO resistant to new foods at the moment that I don't know what to take out/add in.
I always like to think--ah! We've made progress, but then Mr. Hyde comes back and NOTHING works. We've talked about using words to express problems, and how I can't read his mind to know what's going on. We've done social stories, and when he's Dr. Jekyll he acknowledges them and he's FINE. When he's Mr. Hyde-- I just want to lock the "vilde chaya" in a cage until he calms down--we've never done that. At most we've stood holding his door shut for a few minutes--and remember when we've done that it's been for our safety b/c he's been throwing stuff at us or biting us. But its like there's no carry over of the interventions that we've done and the tantrums that we've experienced. There's this "look" in his eyes and the way he cocks his head he's just a different person when this is happening.
Its the Dr. Jeykll in him that makes me think that its not ADHD, not ODD--b/c he is in control and acting like a normal 7 y/o. But when Mr. Hyde is in the room, we are left scratching our heads!

Who chose the Hyde and Jeykll people? Was that you or him. I don't like it at all cause it seems that your kind of labeling him with a personality disorder without every having something like that confirmed. Not sure that will do any good.
If you feel he should be evaluated then you should do what you need to do with your mothers intuition. But, dont label him before you have any diagnosis. And again, I dont have all the details, but from what you posted it doesnt have to mean that he has any kind of condition or disorder.

mommy201

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 1:12 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don't think its a comparison at all. There is a big difference between a teacher/student relationship and mother/son.

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 2:05 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Unfortunately, your pediatrician is absolutely incorrect. It takes just one strep infection (or other infection for PANS) to cause neurological dysfunction and complications in these susceptible children. (Often these infections are asymptomatic or missed.) The related behavioral symptoms generally come and go a few times until the body becomes "tired" of fighting it. Then over time, especially if strep occurs again, the symptoms become more intense and frequent and unfortunately harder to treat.
I have been through this. Please trust me. I would seek a specialist and beg my pediatrician for bloodwork and a trial of antibiotics ASAP. I thank Hashem everyday that he gave me the wisdom and fortitude to do this. I now have my calm, reasonable and happy son back and feel responsible to pass this information on. Hope it's helpful. Hatzlocha, its not easy at all!

groovy1224

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 2:43 pm

mommy201 wrote:

Can people stop nitpicking on the specific terminology OP uses to express herself??? She isn't labeling him by using the Jekyll/Hyde terminology, she's using a well known literary reference to explain the extreme swings.

Just like how she's not actually accusing him of being a terrorist. OP does not actually believe her 7 year old has links to Al Qaida. She is saying that he has a habit of threatening violence if his demands are not met.

It's very frustrating when you are trying to explain your problem and people zero in on one word and forget the rest.

amother

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 2:57 pm

I'm using the "extreme labels" to describe the yes extremeness in his mood. What is a terrorist? Someone who threatens violence and destruction if you don't give in to his desires--and that is what he does. I said at the beginning that I didn't like resorting to these terms, but that is what is coming down to. Yesterday we had a good day. When he's fine--yes he's a normal 7 year-old. It's when he's threatening to throw things and hurt me or his siblings? That is normal? The fact that I can't find something to motivate him that's age appropriate? Almost getting me legit locked out of my room 45 mins before Shabbos just because he wants a computer that I'm "never buying him?" (which he only elaborated on AFTER the fact), it's a miracle that I figured out how to get back in.

Parent vs. Teacher, this bizarreness in his face when he's in his "Mr. Hyde" mode is kind of strange and I've never seen it before. For all of those calling this "normal 7 year-old behavior" what is your comparison point?

This is one reason I'm hesitant about therapy b/c it often comes down to attacking the parent and all the things I'm doing/not doing. Whereas its not addressing what is going on in HIS mind that triggers these episodes.

I dont' know what to do about the PANDAS, we're relatively new to this pediatrician and he comes very highly recommended, but I don't know if he really knows much about it, I was only able to relay messages through his nurses.

amother

Burgundy

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 3:05 pm

I would make an appointment for a sick visit so I can speak to the doctor face to face which I think is very important here. Don't be afraid to advocate for your child. You're all he has and he needs you more than ever now.

I would also email Dr. Susan Schulman for her suggestions. She is an excellent, caring and expert doctor with loads of experience with this and will most likely email you back within 24 hours. Perhaps she can direct you to a knowledgeable doctor in your area (or possibly set up a skype appointment).
susankschulmanmd@gmail.com

ra_mom

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 6:04 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

This thread is a lot like the "husband potched 5 year old thread".

You know, for thousands of years the behavior you describe was virtually non-existent. Parents would "nip in the bud" all rebellious behavior by age 3.

Bull ****.

amother

Wed, Sep 18 2019, 9:34 am

Of course last night I get a phone call from his Rebbe essentially echoing many of the concerns I have--not the extreme/dangerous behaviors, but some of the more annoying and cheppering ones. The fact that he's so bright and yet so difficult to motivate. Tends to be off-task or "on his own terms." Tends to be on the rude sided etc.

If I seem overly-negative, it could be reflective of the difficult time we have with him at times. When he's fine he's not a problem. Last night he was mostly OK. I mean I get it we did an errand that he didnt want to do, and he was better than he usually is if he "doesn't want to do something", but there have been times that if he doesn't want to go on an outing he will practically sabotage our efforts to go. I forget what he did, but he did something and my husband said that if that's the way he will behave I won't take him.

Then he'll make a supper request, and we try to accommodate him top priority as if he doesn't eat then we're all miserable, but then he liked it and no one else did, so they were nutty.

He often complains that things aren't fair--but then when I counter with a way to make them fair, he's still not interested.

#BestBubby

Wed, Sep 18 2019, 9:44 am

ra_mom wrote:

Bull ****.

You deny that children are more defiant and chutzpadik today than in past generations?

southernbubby

Wed, Sep 18 2019, 10:03 am

#BestBubby wrote:

You deny that children are more defiant and chutzpadik today than in past generations?

If you read the Chumash, you see Yishmael and Eisav were not model boys. I do agree that difficult children were punished harshly in the past but many children ran away or were delinquent. Even literature, such as Oliver Twist, tells us that juvenile delinquent enclaves existed. Why was it necessary for cities to appoint truancy officials?
The film "Newsies" was apparently based on a time when delinquent children roamed the streets.

#BestBubby

Wed, Sep 18 2019, 10:19 am

southernbubby wrote:

majority of street children were orphans, not runaways from parents.

southernbubby

Wed, Sep 18 2019, 10:38 am

#BestBubby wrote:

majority of street children were orphans, not runaways from parents.

There were both.

southernbubby

Wed, Sep 18 2019, 10:51 am

I looked it up but don't know how to link it. The New York House of Refuge, opened in 1825, was for boys whose parents could not monitor their behavior and doesn't appear to have ever been an orphanage. Since the mid 1500's, child criminals had been treated like adult offenders and a group called The Child Savers were trying to separate juvenile delinquents from adult offenders and started The Refuge.

amother

Wed, Sep 18 2019, 10:53 am

There's a reason why orphanages were disbanded in "favor" of the foster family situation. While still not ideal, it made sure that children were accounted for by a family who was supposed to take care of them.

That's what boggles my mind about my son. He's with 2 loving parents, stable home, he always has food to eat and clothes to wear, but he doesn't LIKE the food we give him, he doesn't always LIKE the clothes I buy. I even took him to the store and had him pick out a few shirts so that he would like them, but when I asked him why he's not wearing them he all of a sudden "doesn't like them". Some of it was that they are "too big"--they were a size up, but not completely oversized. For his birthday everything he wanted for his birthday was at least $50, we usually spend around $30 for birthdays. I spoke to him to find out his likes and interests b/c they have changed in recent times, and I tried to find something in the same category but in my budget, and while he seemed to like it at first one feature of the toy didn't meet his expectations, Amazon said it wasn't exactly a flaw so they couldn't do anything about it. So since that time he's been on my case that I got him a "stupid gift" and I "never do anything for him", I "never get him ANY toys"--but its like we have a box overflowing of legos, that they dont' touch, I got him a bat and balls, that he he's lost all of the balls. He spends most of the day playing his video game. The things he wants are not things that we can afford, nor do we think that he's old enough/mature enough/responsible enough or behaves well enough to get. Like one of his beefs is that I won't let him play "Fortnite" which is rated 12+.