Why aren't schools any cheaper OOT?

33055

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 9:56 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

Many out of town places do not get the government funding that schools in NY and NJ do, due to a much smaller voting and lobbying bloc.
For example, in the oot place I went, the school got $0 gov't funding- not for busses, lunch, books, anything.

Combine that with the economies of scale, much less alumni donors, donors in general. Then you have much higher prices.

Additionally, many oot of schools have to bring in teachers to the city to teach which results in higher salaries plus relocation costs.
And yes, the schools pay a lot more for teachers than in town schools cuz there aren't as many teachers available.

I really, really don't think that the cost has anything to do with corruption

There's a lot of local government support for frum schools in Monsey. For example: there is a book depot that can be used to access resources on addition to the text book allowance. Books are expensive.

amother

Cyan

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 10:02 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

we're BT / recently married with no kids yet, but looking to move to an OOT community for cheaper cost of living and generally better quality of life, among other reasons.

can ppl honestly explain to me why the cost of jewish schools is pretty much the same in cheap-COL cities as it is in major high-COL jewish communities?

one would think the OOT schools have significantly lower operating expenses -- real estate / rents are waaaay cheaper, which is a big deal. also, I would assume (but perhaps I'm wrong) that they're paying their teachers and staff less because everyone's wages are generally lower and teachers don't need/expect as much to survive.

unlike many BTs we know who remain stary-eyed forever and take everything at face value and toot the "party line." we are cynical about certain things in the orthodox world and realize that no institution is immune from human nature, greed, corruption, etc. for example, our rabbi basically told us that the cost of kosher meat is what it is because "some rabbis are making a lot of money off of it, and I'm not one of them."

our hunch is that it seems unjustified that the schools in OOT communities cost the same as in high COL cities.

As someone who works in the kosher food industry, tell your Rabbi he doesn't know the logistics of bringing kosher meat to the consumer vs. producing non-kosher meat to a vast audience without schechita/supervison.

There is enough freedom of market/economy in America that if it would be feasible to bring kosher meat for a cheaper price, some Yiddish speaking guy would jump on the bandwagon to make parnasa.

Moreover, I belong to a chasidic kehilla that has schools in Monsey, NYC and Lakewood.
My husband heavily finances the NYC school and luckily for us city people tuition can be lower than Monsey and Lakewood. Because of different expenditures, IT COSTS MORE TO MAINTAIN A MONSEY OR LAKEWOOD SCHOOL THAN A BOROUGH PARK one, despite the real estate difference.

In my humble opinion, school administration is mesiras nefesh probably in all cities in America.
If an administrator make ONE financial blunder they could put the school in
financial trouble. (There is a reason school administrators are in constant touch with each other to keep themselves on the right track.)

Being Jews who keep the Torah, was and always will be mesiras nefesh.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 10:25 am

Everyone is right here (economies of scale, higher paid teachers due to supply/demand, fewer donors, more scholarships, etc) BUT one thing in OP that I want to clarify: just because cost of living is cheaper out of town for houses in frum communities does NOT mean that large buildings are necessarily cheaper. Frum neighborhoods drive prices up in larger cities, and in smaller cities this price hike doesn't happen as quickly (again, supply and demand....the more people competing in exclusively frum neighborhoods for the same houses, the more they will try to win a bidding war...whereas in non-frum society, you can just switch neighborhoods to find a lower cost in a house)....so school buildings which don't come a dime a dozen really may not be all that much cheaper to buy/build/lease like OP seemed to think. The cost of running the facilities may still be very much in line what it would be in a more "in-town" city.

amother

Salmon

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 10:51 am

leah233 wrote:

I'm guessing that OOT schools have fewer mega donors than in town schools.

For budgeting purposes of an existing school I once compared tax returns of a few different schools (all in town, all relatively similar schools)

The expenses per student were basically the same. Tuition varied greatly between the schools becuase the donations they received also varied greatly. Higher tuition always equaled less donations.

Some of these OOT schools have Federation support, because there are only a few schools in the community vs. hundreds.
And yes, they might have mega donors.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 11:58 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

thanks for the responses. regarding the economies of scale comments, it seems that some of these OOT schools aren't particularly small because there are 1-2 schools in the whole city for everyone

mega-donors might be a possible answer.

if we don't ask why, it certainly won't change the system!

if enough people ask the hard questions and demand answers, things *might* change.

If you don’t have children, why is it you are focusing on school costs? As an accountant and a school parent I know where the costs go. Most schools OOT will provide financial information to parents of enrolled children. I’ve lived both in and out of town.

Please don’t think you are smarter than the rest of us by think we are all cattle and not inquiring.

amother

Firebrick

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 12:09 pm

Government funding. I don't think NYers realize how much that makes a difference.
I remember what a big deal it was when I was in high school and the librarian received a grant to buy a limited amount of books. Then a couple of years later, the state gave money for just one specific type of textbook (I think social studies, maybe) and that was a huge deal.

NYers have taken that sort of thing for granted since probably the 80s, which I think was when Rabbi Sherer worked something out so religious private schools started to get quite bit of funding from the city and/or state.

amother

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 2:45 pm

lots of great insight from everyone. thanks!

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

we hopefully will have them soon, and I'm thinking ahead.

didn't say I'm smarter than everyone else. I didn't think nobody inquired. I thought it could be one of those things where everyone knows something is ridiculously priced but just throws their hands up and says there's nothing they can do about it. also, as BTs, we *do* often see a cattle mentality among other BTs. we know lots of BTs who just do what they're told and don't question a single thing because they somehow think it's a chillul Hashem to even mention for example that the service is atrocious at most kosher restaurants.

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 2:49 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

lots of great insight from everyone. thanks!

we hopefully will have them soon, and I'm thinking ahead.

didn't say I'm smarter than everyone else. I didn't think nobody inquired. I thought it could be one of those things where everyone knows something is ridiculously priced but just throws their hands up and says there's nothing they can do about it. also, as BTs, we *do* often see a cattle mentality among other BTs. we know lots of BTs who just do what they're told and don't question a single thing because they somehow think it's a chillul Hashem to even mention for example that the service is atrocious at most kosher restaurants.

How many kosher restaurants have you been to that you feel qualified to make such a statement?

amother

Vermilion

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 2:56 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Its not one of those things. What are those things?

You want just not do what your told? Make a decision whether you want a yeshiva/day school education for your child. Once you make that decision, pick the one that is appropriate.

If what you value is financial transparency - find a school that offers it.

regarding the restaurants. the statement is true where I live, and its not a chillul Hashem to say so. You just accept it and move on. Or not. Eat at home.

amother

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 3:04 pm

amother [ Saddlebrown ] wrote:

How many kosher restaurants have you been to that you feel qualified to make such a statement?

first off, you're slightly twisting my post around. what I said is that a lot of BTs think it's a chillul hashem to say that kosher restaurants have atrocious service. my words say nothing about the truth of the statement.

we're getting way off topic, but yeah I do find that the service is usually awful at kosher restaurants. (been to maybe 40-50, ranging from casual pizza/sandwich places to fancy ones). and all the FFBs in our community talk about the service being atrocious at most kosher restaurants wherever they go -- in our community and in other cities. we don't go out much; I like to cook.

amother

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 5:45 pm

aliavi wrote:

Okay, after reading through your posts I hope you don’t move to my community. I would so sincerely suggest considering how you are coming across with your preconceived notions and what you will accomplish with your approach. It doesn’t sound like you will find much you like within an observant community.

woah, no need to make this personal.

I wanted to use the luxury of anonymity to put my preconceived notion right out there out on the table and let people know exactly what I was thinking, so that they can respond to what is in my mind. I've been very willing to listen to everyone's comments and I've learned a ton from them. I've repeatedly thanked people for their insights and said they've raised good points. overall, lots of posters have been very helpful in this thread, and I thought this was a positive and productive thread. so I'm really not sure why you'd need to say something so mean and hateful.

Chana Miriam S

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 8:57 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Because in general, ppl who live oot don’t have money which is why they live oot in many cases. You can be cy iCal but our town has like 20 rich families and 2000 not rich families with multiple organizations and everyone’s hand in your pocket. Look at the big picture. We moved oot so I could stay home with my kids because real estate was cheaper. We could rarely afford full tuition due to various hardships. I’m not the only one in my community like this.

amother

Brunette

Thu, Sep 19 2019, 9:00 pm

I live in the Washington DC area and schools are expensive. They are amazing, so you get what you pay for. Preschool is $8-12k/ year depending on the hours, and elementary is $16k/year. I always thought we were paying insane amounts until my coworker told me that daycare in her area is $25k/year/ child. People cant just watch and teach your kids for free. It is not possible nor is it moral to expect that. Out of town schools do not have as many kids to pay the same amount of teachers. They are not corrupt, they are just spread thin.