S/O Nashim b'mai zachyan

amother

Sat, Sep 21 2019, 11:55 pm

Since I was hijacking the wedding night thread, I figured I'd start a spin-off.

I'm sort of playing devil's advocate and sort of really not.

A poster on that thread quoted the whole Gemara about נשים במאי זכיין that the seminaries love to harp on.

That Gemara always makes me feel like less than a person. Was I really put onto this earth just as an enabler?? I have no inherent value on my own? I'm just a moon, reflecting the light of that which is supposed to be greater than me?

Really?! I just can't accept that.

Please don't give me apologetics.

amother

Sun, Sep 22 2019, 12:15 am

tichellady wrote:

The Gemara is full of conflicting ideas about women. If you don’t like that specific piece then you don’t have to like it or agree with it. It’s not the basis of our faith.

Thanks for acknowledging that.

I do hear you.

But I'd still like an explanation as to the role of the woman that does not involve being a reflector of light.

Look at a woman like Sara Schenirer. Well, technically she didn't support men's learning. Does she not have the zechus of Torah?

amother

Orchid

Sun, Sep 22 2019, 12:15 am

People then to quote gemaras for their own convenience. There is the story of Devorah hanavia and her husband. Her husband couldnt learn, but she fulfilled her tafkid. (There are plenty of women out their who were pashut people, they were not a prophetess or something people would wow. Their husbands were barely able to kovei itim to be kazayis, (or none at all), trust me they had other tafkid than the talmid chochom's wife next door.)

There is a gemara about mother-in-laws and daughter-in-laws dislike for each other.
But I happen to love my mother-in-law. She greatly enhanced my life. For goodness sake, who cares. (Of course nobody ever notices the Naomi/Ruth connection.)

There is a gemara about a woman doing her husband's will but in Bereishis we learn about
Eizer Kenegdo. I am not really sure what the gemara means, and frankly most people also dont. The gemara about a women spitting in a Rabbi's face is not understandable. Either she was married to a dark, evil man or she was [crazy], or both. Dont try to figure it out.
It wont get you nowhere.

We are all her for a tafkid, we have our individual tikkun. That includes single women too.
that includes women who marry men who do not learn. Dont try to figure everything out.
Just do your mitzvos and massim tovim. Follow your gut. Your gut knows what you need to do in this world.

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Sep 22 2019, 12:35 am

We actually learned this Gemara inside in seminary, as my teacher said that many people misrepresent what it says
The Gemara is talking about the great zechus of learning Torah- a greater zechus than doing Mitzvos.
Then the Gemara goes on to ask about women- how do they get schar?
The Meiri inside explains that the Gemara is asking Nashim bamai because practically women didn’t learn in those days- so how can they get zchus? The answer is that if they send off their husband: kids, they can get part of that zechus too- but that isn’t to say it’s the only way to get zchus. The meiri says hein she...- whether they learn or they send their kids off- either way they get zchus- the answer was just for if women don’t learn. But again, it wasn’t saying women don’t get zchus for learning!!

amother

Sun, Sep 22 2019, 12:47 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

Which seminary?

Guessing Machon Raaya or of a similar ilk.

amother

Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:03 am

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

גדול מצווה ועושה ממי שאינו מצווה ועושה

Women get schar for learning Torah, but not as much as men.

Please leave the word schar out of this thread as much as possible, if you don't mind.

I'm not overly concerned about what will happen in the future. I'm concerned about what I need to do right now.

I've been struggling for a long time with my gut knowledge of myself and my understanding that I am not your typical Bais Yaakov girl. Given the challenges in my life, it is virtually impossible for me to be that wonderful enabler of Torah that seems to be the only purpose of women, according to that particular Gemara.

Knowing my own G-d given strengths and weaknesses, I am troubled by the prospect that this is my only purpose. It cannot be, for then why do I live?

tichellady

Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:05 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Chessed, relationship with Hashem, teaching others, doing mitzvot

amother

Cerise

Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:07 am

Ravenclaw wrote:

Orchid, why are you anon? You are brilliant.
We know the truth deep down. It feels right.

The depiction of woman in the torah and gemara is overwhelmingly that we are inferior beings. I don't need to list a dozen examples. This is not about twisting the truth to get the result we would like. This is simply a matter of taking the words at face value. Sorry.

amother

Orchid

Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:11 am

amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:

No, she's completely wrong. Besides that I don't understand the point of making fun of Torah and Gemarah on a presumably Orthodox site.

And she's not brilliant at all - her points are pretty easy to find it you do a simple Google search.

I don't see anyone making fun of Torah.

I assume you have a husband who learns. Many of us do not.

I assume you have boys who fit the bill of having the ability to master mishnayos and gemara. Many of us do not.

These are valid discussions.

The Gemara itself is discussion back and forth.

amother

Orchid

Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:18 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Oh, I believe that. I guess what I'd like is some sources verifying and validating it.

Tanya may be helpful

GPS for the soul by NAdav

https://www.judaica-world.com/.....abbed

Once you get its philosophy, you can graduate to Daily Tanya with Rabbi Gordon on Chabad.org

or try Rabbi Chaim Millers Tanya which is very in depth.

amother

Sun, Sep 22 2019, 1:19 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

I'm not Chabad, though. Tanya is not necessarily accepted in the mainstream.