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PSA- Edited: After months of not finding any insects
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amother
Seafoam


 

Post Thu, Oct 10 2019, 9:31 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Todays Rabbonim, ranging from the OU to Chassidish, ALL recommend either buying checked vegetables or checking w a lightbox. There may be a few reasons that they are recommending much more checking than generations ago, and I think the major reason is that with the ban of strong insecticides, due to govt regulations, because of the health risks of ingesting these insecticides, as time goes on, our produce is much buggier than it ever used to be.

The Jewelers Loupe that costs a few dollars, just makes it quicker and easier. If youre checking pre-washed veg, it goes pretty quickly.

I think only those to the left of OU, religiously, are less careful about Bdikas Tolaim.
generations ago they used strong insecticide that's now banned???
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zohar




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 10 2019, 9:41 pm
The light box makes it easier. Without that technology, you need to hold it up and check it against the sun light. That's what they did in generations past. You can do that today if you'd like, but most find a light box easier. And previous generations were careful about this. In pre-war Europe, pesach time, my grandfather's family would only use the stalks of the romaine because they had lots of guest and it was too much of a pain to check.
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alef12




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 10 2019, 9:42 pm
amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:
generations ago they used strong insecticide that's now banned???


Yes. DDT is the main one.
And since they banned them there is now even more of an insect problem than even before they were discovered.
The populations of beneficial insects like ladybugs which balanced (ie: ate) the population of insects like aphids used to be in balance but the strong insecticides killed everything but the strongest of the "bad" (plant eating) bugs and that balance has still not returned. I could go on and on. LOL
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alef12




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 10 2019, 9:46 pm
Insects aren't just an issue to the kosher consumers but are an agricultural issue. The difference is we won't tolerate ANY bugs in the vegetables we eat and the farmers will tolerate a small amount as long as it doesn't damage their crop
We're not talking microscopic things like bacteria but insects like aphids and thrips. They are definitely visible but sometimes their legs and antenna aren't so easy to see.
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nylon




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 10 2019, 9:53 pm
50 years ago, they used DDT, but 100 years ago or more, they didn't.
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amother
Amethyst


 

Post Thu, Oct 10 2019, 10:00 pm
Rappel wrote:
I really thought this was a satire thread at first...

Came here to say this.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 10 2019, 10:37 pm
As someone else said, insecticides were a thing one or two generations ago, but not for most of history. However I bet (without the knowledge to back it up though) that people were not in the habit of eating so plentifully as to need more convenient ways of checking. We eat overall much more than past generations, leafy salads were probably never quite this trendy, and besides for marror nobody was checking bags and bags of lettuce for every other meal. Nowadays if you have a large family or company and you like salad, the lightbox becomes important because otherwise you're going to get a whopper of a neck-ache from holding leaves up to the sunlight.

After learning the halachos of checking, I feel comfortable trusting my eyesight (with corrective glasses) and the bugs I've seen are generally not very difficult to identify as such. The halachic prohibition excludes anything you can't see, and anything that I with corrective lenses and electric lighting would not be able to identify as a bug I reckon would not have been noticeable by the average housewife 200 years ago. In addition I find soaking and thorough rinsing very effective at removing most bugs.
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 10 2019, 10:41 pm
Rappel wrote:
Would you say that Rabbi Belsky zt"l was less careful about this mitzva than the OU? Rolling Eyes

R' Belsky is the one who set the policies of the OU, by the way, so this statement is somewhat redundant. I believe in partnership with R' Schechter, but R' Belsky was considered The main OU posek until he was incapacitated shortly before his passing.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 3:27 am
It's literally about what your eye sees. I'd never put myself in mess with stuff like this
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 4:48 am
amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:
generations ago they used strong insecticide that's now banned???


Yes. Not many generations ago like during the Middle Ages, but in the 20th century.

DDT, synthesized in 1874, was banned in 1972, more for its effect on wildlife than for its effect on humans. Some species like the bald eagle came close to extinction because the DDT made the eggshells so fragile they broke when the mother tried to incubate them. It also happens to be a possible human carcinogen and damages the liver.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 5:46 am
amother [ Seafoam ] wrote:
generations ago they used strong insecticide that's now banned???


You forget. There was a new Torah instituted about 50 years ago. We have new halachas (I.e. tznius), new minhagim, etc., all based on the new version.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 5:47 am
Oh yes Colombus brought very effective bug killer
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zohar




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 6:22 am
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
You forget. There was a new Torah instituted about 50 years ago. We have new halachas (I.e. tznius), new minhagim, etc., all based on the new version.


The prohibition of eating bugs is literally d'oraisa. One who does, transgresses multiple lavim. Why is it so hard to understand that, because of DDT and other pesticides, checking for bugs became mostly unnecessary at the time. Or great great grandmothers definitely were concerned about bugs and checked, or more likely, avoided leafy greens like my family on pre-war Europe, who cut away the leafy part of the romaine and only used the stalks for Maror, because it was too much of a pain to check each leaf individually against the sun. Also, there are generations of Halacha seforim and responsa regarding these issues.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 9:55 am
Ruchel wrote:
Oh yes Colombus brought very effective bug killer


The 15th-17th-century explorers brought very effective people killer aka infectious diseases such as smallpox, to which the native population had never been exposed and had no immunity. They didn't do this deliberately, but it was even more efficient at wiping out the locals than guns were.

The explorers in turn had no immunity to New World infections, so they dropped like flies from diseases that didn't much affect the natives. But as a hostile invading force, they deserved it.
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amother
Purple


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 11:00 am
zohar wrote:
The prohibition of eating bugs is literally d'oraisa. One who does, transgresses multiple lavim. Why is it so hard to understand that, because of DDT and other pesticides, checking for bugs became mostly unnecessary at the time. Or great great grandmothers definitely were concerned about bugs and checked, or more likely, avoided leafy greens like my family on pre-war Europe, who cut away the leafy part of the romaine and only used the stalks for Maror, because it was too much of a pain to check each leaf individually against the sun. Also, there are generations of Halacha seforim and responsa regarding these issues.


That very same prohibition carefully spells out that eating bugs "seen with the naked eye" is what's prohibited. Why is that conveniently dropped out of the equation? I believe magnifying glasses were invented back in the 1200-1300s & all through the years not one Rabbi or Rav deemed it necessary to use other tools to search for bugs. Yet now, with the new Torah introduced where Chumrahs and add'l stringencies became the MO, we need special lights, Jewelers loupe and what not to search for them. Is the microscope gonna be next on the list? I hope not, because then we will see all the microscopic bugs crawling on our hands, and we will have to start eating with gloves only.

I'm not making light of the halacha. We need to stay on our toes about it. In unusual circumstances of infestation, should take extra care or avoid that particular fruit or veg during that time period. But other than that, a careful look over and a rinse with hot soapy water fulfills the halacha.
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 12:37 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
That very same prohibition carefully spells out that eating bugs "seen with the naked eye" is what's prohibited. Why is that conveniently dropped out of the equation? I believe magnifying glasses were invented back in the 1200-1300s & all through the years not one Rabbi or Rav deemed it necessary to use other tools to search for bugs. Yet now, with the new Torah introduced where Chumrahs and add'l stringencies became the MO, we need special lights, Jewelers loupe and what not to search for them. Is the microscope gonna be next on the list? I hope not, because then we will see all the microscopic bugs crawling on our hands, and we will have to start eating with gloves only.

I'm not making light of the halacha. We need to stay on our toes about it. In unusual circumstances of infestation, should take extra care or avoid that particular fruit or veg during that time period. But other than that, a careful look over and a rinse with hot soapy water fulfills the halacha.


I agree with you. Don't get me started on all the nidda "halachos", "tznius" and other things which are totally out of proportion!
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 12:41 pm
Nor is there a need to inspect an etrog with a loupe, but it’s become a “thing”.
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watergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 17 2019, 6:58 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I was curious and looked at the water before dumping it, with the 40X loupe and saw nothing suspicious. Looks like what watergirl said about it being well washed, is true. It has a Hechsher but definitely not Star K.


I came back to say this. You are correct, it has a KORC, which is on the Star K list of approved hechshers.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Oct 17 2019, 12:23 pm
My saba once said most today wouldn't eat in most charedi family pre war
It is a turn off
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Oct 22 2019, 9:07 pm
Update, I usually buy Organic Girl pre-washed organic leafy greens, but this week I bought three different kinds of "Earthbound" brand Organic leafy greens, on Ft Hamilton/65th, for Yom Tov salads, (I think thats the name that was on the plastic containers, I threw the plastic containers out) and found

Z I L C H

on my thrip cloth, with my 40X Jewelers Loupe.

Its pretty quick to check. Its not the big deal that I thought it was, once you get the hang of it.
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