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Kaparos without tzaar balei chaim
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amother
Orange


 

Post Fri, Oct 11 2019, 1:45 pm
often we see people who do not feel comfortable holding them under their wings or are concerned for their own sake not to get dirty bring cardboard boxers and put the chicken in it and swing the box around their head.
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amother
Viola


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 12:02 pm
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
In a big quandary about this as well. My husband really appreciates when the whole family does it with chickens, as is family minhag but I hate it.
How can we beg for mercy when we're not treating the chickens with mercy?


Why hasnt anyone of importance in the frum community once and for all stopped the cruelty to animals that is so shameful and so public, that its unbearable.

If we want to continue traditions from yesteryear, we have to do it with seichel.

Im the last one to connect Tzaros to their causes, but the chickens live in way worse conditions for way longer, than the people crushed to death this year, who it is assumed died instantly, and didnt suffer as long.

Are there any Gdolei Hador who have come out againt this shameful treatment of animals?

Shechita YES, but inhumane treatment before Shchita NO!!!

I echo amother periwinkle's statement:

How can we beg for mercy when we're not treating the chickens with mercy?
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amother
Azure


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 12:12 pm
We do treat them with mercy.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 12:26 pm
There are places now that claim to be cruelty free. The chickens are not in cages and walk around eating and drinking until they are used for kaporas.
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amother
Viola


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:50 pm
amother [ Azure ] wrote:
We do treat them with mercy.


Please describe this mercy.

In what city?

Im seeing chickens stuffed into crates where they cant move, like dirty shmattas, and these crates are piled a few one on top of another and left there over Shabbos.

southernbubby wrote:
There are places now that claim to be cruelty free. The chickens are not in cages and walk around eating and drinking until they are used for kaporas.


Sounds humane. My question exactly. Why cant they be roaming free and transported right before use? Because its cheaper to keep them stuffed in crates, over Shabbos?
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:52 pm
We haven't done it with chickens in years, because of the mass treatment of kaparos chickens.
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amother
Viola


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:53 pm
ra_mom wrote:
We haven't done it with chickens in years, because of the mass treatment of kaparos chickens.


Same here.
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amother
Antiquewhite


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:54 pm
ra_mom wrote:
We haven't done it with chickens in years, because of the mass treatment of kaparos chickens.


Me too.

Even though my "community" is noheig to use chickens, I just can't anymore.

I didn't grow up with it--and didn't start until I was in my 20s in a community that did it with chickens and had access to chickens. I stopped a few years ago.
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amother
NeonGreen


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:56 pm
We should all feel such passion in our treatment of our fellow Jews
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amother
Antiquewhite


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 1:56 pm
amother [ NeonGreen ] wrote:
We should all feel such passion in our treatment of our fellow Jews


I agree. I think one can do both.
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amother
Viola


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 2:05 pm
amother [ NeonGreen ] wrote:
We should all feel such passion in our treatment of our fellow Jews


Very true, but this doesnt dismiss the need for humane treatment of animals.

Sensitive thoughtful people care about both.

Insensitive thoughtless people dont care about either.

Tzaar Baalei Chaim is clearly a Jewish concept.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 2:06 pm
amother [ Viola ] wrote:
Sounds humane. My question exactly. Why cant they be roaming free and transported right before use? Because its cheaper to keep them stuffed in crates, over Shabbos?


I think that the chickens are not transported at all. You go to the farm but they stay put.
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amother
Viola


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 2:08 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I think that the chickens are not transported at all. You go to the farm but they stay put.


That doesnt work in large frum neighborhoods like in Brooklyn.
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amother
Marigold


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 2:31 pm
ra_mom wrote:
The chickens used for kapparos don't even get donated so there's no tzedakah included when you do kapparos this way.
Instead use money and donate the money to tomchai shabbos.


I work in a chicken plant. At this time of year, many of our chickens are taken to different communities for kapporos. Those who take them pay a set amount per chicken and after kapporos they return the chickens to us for shechita. The money people pay to do kapporos is usually used for a tzedaka organized by those who 'buy'(rent?) the chickens from us. And every penny of the money paid to buy/rent those chickens from us goes to tzedaka too.

And the chickens have to be handled properly or they won't be kosher for shechita when returned to us. They are sent out one evening and returned the next evening or early the following morning. The crates they are in are the same crates that are always used to transport chickens to the plant. The number of chickens per crate depends on the weather. The hotter it is, the fewer chickens per crate. The colder it is, the more chickens per crate. No one wants them dying of heat or cold. And they are stacked 8 or 10 crates high to fit in the tractor trailers that transport them.

As the chickens are then sold, not given to the poor, the money paid for kapporos is what goes to tzedaka, is it really that different from using money itself for kapporos?
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amother
Marigold


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 2:33 pm
amother [ Ecru ] wrote:
This tradition needs to die. It's inhumane. I saw the chickens crammed in cages yesterday. I saw men holding them by their wings while their body was hanging. This is unnecessary cruelty. It makes me very sad that they do not have any concern for their suffering.


Chickens are supposed to be held by the wings. Thats the way it is most comfortable for them and whoever is handling them.
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amother
Marigold


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 2:41 pm
amother [ Emerald ] wrote:
We do kapporot with chickens. I keep hearing these claims that the chickens are being thrown out. So every year I stand by the shochet and ask, "ARE YOU SURE THESE CHICKENS ARE BEING DONATED AND WILL BE EATEN?" and every year they assure me yes, they will feed the poor. Are you telling me these shochets are lying to me on erev YK???

The treatment of the birds is another story all-together. It is very upsetting to me, but as previous poster mentioned, this is not unique to kapporot. This is the industry. This is what we're eating! I try to buy from places like KOL and Grow & Behold and hope with the crazy prices I am supporting kindness to these animals and also feeding my family healthier, non-stressed-out animals.

I am going to look into purchasing our own chickens from a farm next year as someone suggested. I really cry at kapporot, but this is our tradition and we wont be switching to money.


These chickens are transported the same way all other chickens are transported. In crates stacked one on top of the other. And the number of birds per crate goes according to the weather too. The difference is that if the bird is pastured, it has access to being outside with grass as opposed to being raised inside a building (though to my knowledge, pastured birds aren't subject to government regulations and oversight so there is no guarantee they are outside). Organic birds, btw, are given organic feed. They are not necessarily given access to outdoors or grassland.
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amother
Viola


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 2:45 pm
amother [ Marigold ] wrote:
I work in a chicken plant. At this time of year, many of our chickens are taken to different communities for kapporos. Those who take them pay a set amount per chicken and after kapporos they return the chickens to us for shechita. The money people pay to do kapporos is usually used for a tzedaka organized by those who 'buy'(rent?) the chickens from us. And every penny of the money paid to buy/rent those chickens from us goes to tzedaka too.

And the chickens have to be handled properly or they won't be kosher for shechita when returned to us. They are sent out one evening and returned the next evening or early the following morning. The crates they are in are the same crates that are always used to transport chickens to the plant. The number of chickens per crate depends on the weather. The hotter it is, the fewer chickens per crate. The colder it is, the more chickens per crate. No one wants them dying of heat or cold. And they are stacked 8 or 10 crates high to fit in the tractor trailers that transport them.

As the chickens are then sold, not given to the poor, the money paid for kapporos is what goes to tzedaka, is it really that different from using money itself for kapporos?



And the chickens have to be handled properly or they won't be kosher for shechita when returned to us.

Are you saying that in all chicken farms, and all storage facilities before Shechita takes place, the chickens are stuffed into crates, in many many piles of crates one on top of the other, for days, without sufficient air circulation?

I hope not.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 2:47 pm
amother [ Viola ] wrote:
And the chickens have to be handled properly or they won't be kosher for shechita when returned to us.

Are you saying that in all chicken farms the chickens are stuffed into crates, in piles of crates one on top of the other, for days, without sufficient air circulation?

I hope not.


Yes all farm chickens are transported in crates.

No chickens are held in crates over shabbos, they are shechted before then, same day as they are used.
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amother
Viola


 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 2:48 pm
amother [ Azure ] wrote:
Yes all farm chickens are transported in crates.

No chickens are held in crates over shabbos, they are shechted before then, same day as they are used.


The Kaporos places DO keep them over Shabbos, in crates as described.
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ra_mom




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Sep 12 2021, 2:59 pm
amother [ Marigold ] wrote:
Chickens are supposed to be held by the wings. Thats the way it is most comfortable for them and whoever is handling them.

No way.
You hold one hand over their wing so it doesn't flap, place your other hand beneath your chicken to secure its legs, and hold it secure against your body.
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