Are you influenced by your childrens' schools hashkafa?

shalhevet

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 7:19 am

Can you give examples?

Firstly, I have never been in a position that I had to send a child to a school not in line with our hashkafa, and I don't think it's good chinuch-wise, although I know not everyone has that choice.

Second, if they learned something we don't do at home, we'd ask our rav. (I can think of an example here - for our daughters at BY they have a school rule that they are not allowed to ride bicycles. We asked our rav, and he said that for a little girl in kitta aleph or bet it's okay, so we let them.)

I teach my children all the time that if they don't know what to do they should ask Abba, and if he doesn't know he asks our rav. I also think this is important for children respecting their father, apart from the actual issue of other people influencing our home's hashkafa/minhagim).

For a teenager who learned about a particular minhag in yeshiva, maybe I'd think differently. Haven't got there yet.

mimivan

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 7:28 am

I'm in a difficult situation right now, because I have to send my child to a special gan which is not 100% in line with our haskafa. Although b'h it is hareidi, they don't emphasize certain things that a frum cheder would and they have hecksherim on food we don't have at home (I figure as long as they are chareidim, though, it is just necessary to "swallow" this one)

My son used to say berachos all the time at home without being reminded. Now I am having to remind him Every Single Time and I feel it is because the school does not emphasize berachos so much because they are dealing with special needs kids (age 4-5). I am kind of disappointed, because my son was perfectly capable of remembering to say brachos himself, but because none of the other kids do, he is developing bad habits Crying

I've spoken to the ganenette, but I don't see an improvement. I guess I'm going to have to keep reminding and davening that the importance of berchos won't be completely disregarded someday when he is old enough to appreciate these things (now I am the "not nice" one because the "fun ganenette" obviously doesn't make the kids say berachos.)

There is no other special gan he can go to. Oy!

mimivan

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 7:36 am

forgive me if my last Post seems a bit Off Topic..

But it is kind of related in the sense that I don't feel like relaxing my chinuch because that is what they are doing in the gan. I may pay a price for this by not seeming as "fun" as the gannenette, but that is the way it is.

At least in Chabad (and I am sure in other circles) if a child is capable of saying berchos by 3, he should be expected to say them!

I try to make it fun and pleasant, but it is still hard to compete with this gan!

Motek

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 2:24 pm

shalhevet wrote:

for our daughters at BY they have a school rule that they are not allowed to ride bicycles. We asked our rav, and he said that for a little girl in kitta aleph or bet it's okay, so we let them.)

I find it surprising that you will let them do something that the school forbids, even if your rav says it's fine. And when they're older, would you also let them do things the school forbids but you/your rav allow? How would you explain it to your children? I thought that it's important to back a school on their policies, even if you disagree with them.

TzenaRena

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 2:56 pm

mimivan wrote:

Are you sure he absolutely MUST go to a special Gan? The reason I am asking this is because one of my friends that was being told that their child must attend a special school, like Machzik Brocho or similar... refused to take the child out of the cheder he was going to...against all "good" advice. She did obtain therapy for him, but he continued in his regular class.

This child is doing fine! All his speech delay issues were dealt with at home with the therapist, and he never attended a special class. This little boy is a very frum child.... will never forget his brochos.... and learns very nicely = even if he's not top of the class.

another friend did send her child to the early intervention Gan , and realized at one point that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be; he wasn't gaining everything he was supposed to anyhow, he may as well go to regular cheder...

If your child knows when to make brochos on his own.. maybe he can handle regular cheder, with some adjustments in their program, at this point? (Obviously I don't know your son, that's why I'm asking).

shalhevet

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 3:00 pm

Motek wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

for our daughters at BY they have a school rule that they are not allowed to ride bicycles. We asked our rav, and he said that for a little girl in kitta aleph or bet it's okay, so we let them.)

I think it depends on the issue. If the school would say that they are not allowed to come in green socks, I would back them as a school rule. However in this case it is something out of school time and premises. It is also something that the teachers don't mention, but we received as school rules. So I'm not even sure that my daughters were aware of it when they were at that age.
I can't really think of any other examples, since we are pretty much in agreement with school policy. If anything, it probably works the other way, that we don't allow everything the school does. As I mentioned before, I think it's a poor chinuch decision (if at all possible) to send your child to a school that doesn't represent the family's derech.

I actually have someone in my family who is MO (as in not covering hair, skirts above the knee, short sleeves etc) who sent their dd to a Tzviya Ulpana (those in Israel will probably know what I'm talking about - very strong MO). Even politically/hashkafically they have nothing in common. Tzviya is vocally pro-medina, zionism, serious Rav Kook hashkofa, whereas this family are not interested in much other than their next holiday or what's on TV tonight. This girl dresses one way for school and another at home. I wonder what's going to happen to her in the end, other than being confused?

Ribbie Danzinger

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 3:14 pm

This is what I am asking. If we choose to send a child to a school with a particular hashkafah (for whatever reason) and then we teach the child that what they are taught in school is not correct by our own standards, what sort of an effect are we having on their chinuch.
On the other hand, should we let the school influence us (the parents) in matters that relate to hashkafah?
An example that I can think of, without wishing to get into a debate about it, is if a girl goes to a school and is taught that she must light candles on erev Shabbat or that she must cover her legs below the knee, but at home, the parents do not hold by that minhag.

shalhevet

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 3:27 pm

Ribbie Danzinger wrote:

I think it's important that a child knows that at home we do what Abba says. If she says 'but my teacher said to xyz (I don't want to go into your two examples, each for a different reason)', then you can explain that it is your teacher's minhag (and not halacha), and she has to do what HER rav says, and YOU have to do what your Abba and HIS rav say. If a child wants to be more machmir, and it doesn't contradict something done in the house, you could let them.

I'll give you a different example. In the BY here the girls daven in the morning. My Sephardi friend holds that girls do not say some of those brochos, and it is a brocha l'vatolo for them. When they are little they say it in school with the others so as not to confuse them. But when they get a bit older, they tell their daughters not to say those brochos. I don't think any harm is done. They can explain that their teacher is Ashkenazi, and that is an Ashkenazi psak, but the rav they go by says differently.

mimivan

Thu, Nov 29 2007, 6:40 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

mimivan wrote:

Tzena Rena:
Thanks for the concern... but yes, he does need a special gan. We got a second and a third opinion...its a whole other megillah. But thanks again.

My mashpia says I'll have to keep lovingly reminding him, to make it fun etc...

iy'h I hope he can go to a regular cheder next year...

catonmylap

Fri, Nov 30 2007, 1:26 am

Ribbie Danzinger wrote:

I think it is okay to do some things differently at home as long as you don't conflict what they learn at school. If the school says you need to dress a certain way at school, the parents do not need to insist that the kids dress that way at home(if it's not consistent with their views). If the kids do(like the school says), I don't think they need to stop them. With the bike example, I think it's okay for Shalhevet to let her daughter ride a bike, but if one day she comes home and says it's assur and doesn't want to anymore, it might be better to let it alone.

I don't think many schools are going to teach minhag like that where there are differing opinions. I think it would be okay to teach girls that in our house, mommy lights candles for you until you are married or on your own.

I grew up going to a haredi school(outside NY, graduated in the early 90s), while my parents were mo. My parents never told me how I should dress. While my mother wore pants, I refused to wear pants. They did tell me on occasion how they thought pants were fine. I was not convinced. I think it's peer pressure as much as anything else. I would have been embarrassed to be seen in pants. And I was embarrassed to be out with my mother like that for years.

I think I came out right wing mo. The haskafa messages of my parents which were different got through. (My brothers are similar to me; and my sister is haredi).

I think if you choose a school with different haskafa than you have, you have to be prepared for your kids to accept the other haskafa. My parents thought it was better we should come out haredi than not religious.

A more liberal school would be more problematic(in my opinion) because you'd be working against the curve, telling your kids that they have do things that other kids don't.

Zeeskeit

Fri, Nov 30 2007, 11:41 am

I am chaseedish and went to a chaseedish school in ny. My mom is from out-of-town and her family was the one of the only FRUM families in their town. They were very much instilled with "we don't do what EVERYBODY else does" their school barely had any rules or hashkafah.

I definitally inherited this motto....not being like EVERYONE ELSE....I think if the school teaches a certain hashkafah or has a certain rule which is more stringent than yours teach the child that acc. to your family elders/rov this is ok but since the school has a rule and you go to this school you must conform with the rules. Once kid has graduated they can decide if they'd like to cont in the school direction or stick to teh family....Kol Hakavod if they'd like to be machmir....but it's important to understand that it's not a must "or else"....For example...my school had rules only to wear natural color stockings (no black, brown, blue, etc) I wore nude and then switched to others once I graduated....

On a tangent....I feel that the school is not machsiv the parents authority in the home....there is no such thing as "if your mom says you can't go on a trip/be part of a production/be in a certain class....than ok" Everything has to be the way the school dictates...rules are made and girls begin saying..."If so & so does this/goes there I can too" I always knew that I can't look at what everyone else is doing, whether it was going on a school trip my parents didn't approve of, or wearing something my parents didn't like.....I think the whole Hashkafa of "Yes, we are different" is lacking and undermines parents authority.....

louche

Fri, Nov 30 2007, 1:32 pm

We have only one school in the immediate vicinity, and no other Orthodox schools have transport to here, so what we see is what we get unless we want to drive our kids to school every day, which is not an option for our family.

We really can't separate the influence of our school from the influence of the community as a whole, since one is a part of the other. Wlly-nilly you are influenced by the community in which you live, even if you fight it kicking and screaming. So I can't say specifically that we've been influenced by the school per se.

In general I feel that you go by the strictest common denominator. If the school is stricter than you, than your children have to follow the school's policy when they're in school or school-related functions. If you're stricter than the school, then your children must follow your policy wherever they are.

However--my home is my castle and I, not the school, will determine what goes on there. So if the school does not allow the children to order harry Potter or books about sinodaurs from Scolastic Books, I will still allow them to read these books at home if I so choose. And if the school says they must wear only wool tzitzis, then wool tzitzis they will wear in school, but ouside of school they can wear cotton.

IMO It would be a mistake to send children to a school more lenient than your family unless you had no alternative, or unless you were comfortable with your children adopting different ways. even so, you would have to do a lot of explaining to your children.

Imaonwheels

Sat, Dec 01 2007, 6:51 pm

Ribbie, you know I know what you are talking about. I eventually chose to have my boys at home until a certain age. Israeli frum schools except for the weakest do insist, and say so, that the child follow certain things outside of the school as well. If the school requests the honest parent has 2 options - move or homeschool. To say the school allows but we don't is ok.

To say you learned assur in school but you say it is ok is a disaster. The reason being is that although few claim to know where it is, somewhere there is a line between halacha and hiddur. Minhag may be stricter than that line but never under it. So people can hold that girls not riding bikes is just minhag but most Israeli rabbonim do not. Hence the BY rule. We each have our own rav and we certainly do not disobey him but permission is not chiuv. Especially when talking about very doubtful chinuch practice. Remember when we ask a rav he gives us halachic, not chinuch advice.

I had much grief from my kids being in schools that weren't proper for our family. No child, boy or girl, by me was in the house from 7th grade. Sending them away saved them, literally. But in my case the schools were much more lenient and basically demanded nothing other than girls wear dresses or boys a kippa.

I was totally not influenced because I have a derech I am sure of. Children are different. The more consistency between home-school-chevra the better. However there are exceptions and that is why we have our rav. He is the one to get this question.

Last edited by Imaonwheels on Sat, Dec 01 2007, 7:04 pm; edited 2 times in total