My son broke another boys glasses out of anger

eileengray

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 10:23 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thank you all for replying. This is exactly the discussion I'm having with my husband, he thinks he should pay fully and I don't see the point.
I don't think it will actually make a difference to his behavior. He is in a small school with only 12 boys in the class, they all play together during recess and refused to let him play. He has a lot of difficulty socially, controlling etc so what exactly should we do? he goes to therapy to learn better behaviors, but with his diagnoses its not so simple. Teachers are there but during recess they only react, even though I have begged the school to do preventative measures..
My heart breaks for him and I dont want to take away his money but my husband thinks its necessary consequence

OP, thank you for the additional information. I'm so sorry about what your son is going through. Have you considered switching him to a bigger school? Sounds like he needs to find some like-minded friends who will appreciate him for who he is.

amother

Beige

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 10:29 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

I'll take the other side. Maybe OP's son is unpleasant to be around, has poor social skills, and generally annoys the other kids. Maybe he plays too roughly, or too loudly, or is too bossy in the game.

I believe that kids should have the right to choose who they play with, if it's free play. If it's an organized sports team, that's one thing, but general recess play is another.

If OP's son was more fun to be with, he'd have his own friends to play with, and there wouldn't be an issue in the first place.

I really, really hate it when schools "force friendships". It almost never works. You can't like everyone all the time.

You can't force friendships but you can insist on kindness and inclusivity.

Our schools have rules which include that if you have a party, either invite less than 1/2 or everyone.
If 3 kids are playing together, you don't need to force them to include a 4th, but if a whole class or a significant majority is playing together, as a group, it is disgusting to leave 1 child out because you don't like him or because he is awkward.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 10:33 am

BTW, I didn't assume that OP's son was automatically a bully.

I say maybe he is a child with social issues, and that is distancing him from the other boys. OP seems to agree with that, and is working on it.

The other boys don't have the social skills or coping mechanisms to deal with OP's kid in a mature and fair manner. They are KIDS! Kids can be jerks. Maybe the other kids have their own set of social issues.

I'm not blaming any particular side. I think this is a dynamic that needs to be addressed in a more proactive and holistic way by the school. If the school cannot manage the kids, OP's son might be better off in a professionally run environment that is more supportive.

BTW: My DD was an incredibly bossy, controlling kid. She struggled with empathy a lot, too. She was always an outsider, and came home in tears more times that I care to count. Believe me, I know that there are many sides to each childhood squabble. I've spoken to other parents. I've spoken to her friends. I've had her apologize. Again, and again, and again.

I spent an enormous amount of time and energy turning her into a decent human being. We did role play, read books on middos, played "what if?", reversed scenarios, and she got 3 years of social skills and language development therapy through the school district.

She still struggles, and gravitates towards the other "nerds and oddballs" at school.

Hang in there OP. Time, maturity, therapy, maybe meds, and lots of love will see you and DS through all of this. And don't forget to daven! (and don't forget to breathe) May your son give you many nachas, and these days will be days worth spending when you see the good results.

mha3484

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 10:45 am

I also agree with the poster that suggested switching schools. I feel bad taking up your whole thread but I can say with experience that my son was not seeing much success socially in Nursery-1st grade and his self image was slowly going down the drain. I was very very worried because as the boys get older the social gap really starts to widen and these kinds of kids really start to feel badly about themselves when they cant meet expectations.

For second grade we played with his meds and also switched him for a year to a therapeutic school that he did in partnership with his yeshiva. He learned a lot of good skills there. We had a meeting with his rebbe at the end of second grade who told us that DS was having a very hard time in regards to having side conversations during instructional time. He followed that by saying in Sept no one would talk to him but by the end of April he could not stop talking to the kids sitting around him. If there is any sort of option for a more supportive school I would really really suggest looking into it.

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 10:56 am

OP my ds is in a very similar situation and of similar age too. In our case we definitely know he is being bullied and are working very hard with the school and therapists to make the bullying stop. My ds also has ADHD and anger type issues, social skills issues, as well as some OCD related issues and phobias which the kids harp on to enrage ds. It's horrible but he is in a bigger class than your ds (think 25 kids) and he has a handful of friends that try sticking up for him against the bullies. I wonder if switching schools would be worthwhile for you.
Medication has helped ds tremendously to alleviate the OCD issues which in turn makes him less of a target plus more equipped to cope. I am so so glad we finally went that route, and BH we are seeing results with a low dose and no side effects.
At first we tried ADHD meds which didn't help.
Therapy is an important tool too. Plus the more services in school your DS can get the better. Maybe he can get approved for a para who can then also act as an additional advocate on behalf of your ds or perhaps also supervise recess / lunch time.
My DS has bitten some kids and also broke a kid's glasses too (out of anger for how they bullied him)
We had to have lots of meetings with the school to sort things out as at one point when ds bit a kid the school threatened to kick my ds out! I doubt they really would have since ds gets so many services and it would reflect poorly on the school in the views of the agencies involved and all.
We did not make my DS pay anything. as others mentioned, we are working hard to improve his anger management skills. We did make it very clear though that he can get in trouble either with the school or with the other boy's parents, and since we can't prove the bullying he can get in trouble for such behavior. You may need a stricter approach with your ds if you are unclear about bullying, but in our case we were very sure our DS was being horribly bullied.
Hugs and Hatzloche

Cheiny

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 11:57 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

My 9 year old son has a few diagnoses and in general has an anger/impulsivity issue.
He broke another boys glasses in school because the boy didn’t let him play during recess with the class. (After a few days of him not being allowed to play this happened)
Of course we reimbursed the parents right away for the replacement but I’m not sure how much to make my son pay for it
He gets no allowance and in general doesn’t have a lot of money (think $100 saved over many years from Chanukah and birthday)
The replacement costed $50

I believe he needs to be punished in some way there than having to pay monetarily. Otherwise he won’t have incentive to not do it again...

amother

Crimson

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 12:33 pm

Cheiny wrote:

I believe he needs to be punished in some way there than having to pay monetarily. Otherwise he won’t have incentive to not do it again...

Just how exactly would you punish a child like OP son? He's 9 with a myriad of difficulties.

Op there's no need to punish your son. He already knows he broke the glasses. Out of frustration and sadness and anger. Please don't take his money away, money is a nice "big boy" thing to have. His struggles are hard enough without more punishment. I really empathise you sound like a wonderful mother. I hope life takes an upturn soon

amother

Ecru

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 12:53 pm

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

He doesn't need punishment. He needs to gain an understanding of why we don't harm other people, or their possessions - even if we are angry. The answer isn't "because it will mean my money is taken away'.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 3:34 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

What is standing out to me, is that you said that the other boy was not letting him play with the class. It sounds like he is being bullied.
Clearly there need to be repercussions for breaking the other boys glasses, as violence is never the answer, but I'm so tired of us blaming the victims when they try to stand up (unsuccessfully) for themselves.

If that is indeed the case, please be careful, as the last thing he may need is feeling like you don't have his back.

I happen to agree with you. It’s not that breaking glasses is ok, it’s just that did anyone try to find out what happened before he broke the glasses that led him to resort to such measures.

33055

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 8:01 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It's is not so much the consequence that determines repeated behavior, but how close the consequence is to the event.

Assuming you have all the facts, your son deserves a consequence for putting his hands on another boy first. There's no justification for that. You don't want your child learning that he can get away with his actions.

I would speak to him about how the boy feels about your son breaking his glasses to teach empathy

The reason he should apologize is so he acknowledges what he did wrong. There's no justification for escalating a situation out of anger.

Your son is 9 not 3. He is old enough to understand consequences for what he did.

Taking his money has the advantage of being an immediate consequence. You could allow him to earn his money back. I would position it that he is earning back the money he lost for breaking the other boy's glasses.

Iymnok

Wed, Nov 13 2019, 11:29 pm

Taking money is the lazy route. Discussing, researching and all the therapy, meds and mental health work are what will develop your child into a loving and productive human being. Punishments that only cause pain breed resentment.
Reactive discipline is the worst "educational" tool. Have the teachers been trained in effective discipline and class management? (Often not in small OOT schools).
There are simple methods like 1-2-3 Magic.
But if the teachers are only reacting, they miss the bullying and punish the victim for reacting. Recess is a great opportunity to teach sportsmanship.

33055

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 2:32 am

Iymnok wrote:

You could take a two pronged approach. But taking money, having the boy apologize, and giving him an opportunity to earn the money back is not lazy.

My son has ADHD (the complex kind) and lacked impulse control. He was never allowed to put his hands on another child. Taking a hard line with him and teaching him empathy worked out beautifully. He's a teen now, and BH I get complimented up and down on his midos. In HS he got singled out in a speech in front of the student body and the parents for praise for his midos. Children like my son must be taught how their affect effects those around him. They must be told how to modify their behavior until that's internalized.

Anyone who has raising a child like this knows it's challenging. Our hardline approach is hard work for the parents. When my son was in early elementary school, he was allowed to get up from his seat at will unlike the other boys. We insisted that he not be allowed special treatment. He had to sit for the entire Shabbos meal always. Hence, we knew he could sit for the entire length of time ther others sat in the classroom.

When my son did something wrong like OP's son did here breaking the glasses, we took him to the house to apologize. When he did something impulsive to his sibling, I was able to say to him, do you see that you made DS sad. That's not nice. As he got older, he had to express to me what the effect on his sibling was. He became sensitive to the consequences of his behavior on those around him.

Yes, we did a lot of research and speaking with professionals regarding my son's ADHD. The effect of his affect was taught to us by a school psychologist who we consulted with.

It's a lot easier for OP is work with her child than to get the schools to change. Do you really think OP has the ability to get the schools to implement the 1 2 3 magic system? They aren't being run by every parent who has the idea how to better them. They aren't even run by the parents on the board. They are run by administrators.

We were also reactive and proactive to situations involving our children. Our children knew we had their backs. You can't change the entire culture of a school, but you can instill a healthy respect for you as a parent to how they treat your child.

The only time DS was allowed to put hands on another boy was of that boy was physically hurting him. One thing no one mentioned in this thead is documenting, documenting, and documenting incidents like what lead to OP's son's frustration.

Lazy - no. Hard work - yes.

dancingqueen

Thu, Nov 14 2019, 6:44 am

Chayalle wrote:

Did you fully investigate the incident and get all the details about how this happened?

I remember when a mother called my mother, irate and furious, telling my mother that my brother broke her son's glasses, and my parents had better pay. My mother calmly told the woman she will speak to my brother and get the facts, and be in touch. It turned out the boy was trying to punch my brother, my brother put up his hands in self-defense and knocked the boy's glasses off by accident.

My parents didn't pay.

Your son is a katan l'halacha. It's not clear that you are obligated to pay. And yes, I'd want to know where the Rebbe is, and why a boy is tormenting your son, and what they are doing about it.

Chayala I’m a little surprised by your post. Op should definitely talk to the school and see what they can do about the social situation and including op. But teaching a child that it’s perfectly ok to break another kids glasses especially when said kid already has anger issues is a terrible lesson.

It does sound like ops son might need more support or maybe even a more supportive school.